O's Fans Held Hostage - Day 18

[Sports Guy]

Ok

I am willing to call the Ramon trade:

"one that MacPhail had to make" or

" the best MacPhail was going to find"

However it still does not qualify as a "decent trade" IMO.

Certainly not a trade that deserves our praise IMO.

[bluedog]

No, we don't. We need to sign one guy to eat innings. Let the kids go out and pitch.

Guthrie

FA (Kawakami, hopefully)

Olson

Albers

Penn

If someone needs to be replaced, you have Hernandez, Bergesen, Berken in AAA who are all going to be ML ready by June, IMO. You laso have Waters and Bass who can start if needed. I really want to keep Liz in the pen, but would still rather see him start than Redding/Hendrickson. I think Patton, Arrieta, and Tillman could be ready by the AS Break.

This is exactly correct. This year should be about evaluating players like Reimold, Montanez, Salazar, Liz, Penn, Olson and seeing if Scott can play 1b.

We have our pitchers coming - Arrieta, Tillman, Matusz, Patton, Hernandez & Bergesen will all have shots to join the rotation in 2009 / 2010. Olson, Liz or Penn might get themselves straightened out and become a serviceable 5th starter. That's the O's future, not (insert random free agent pitcher).

Reimold will be pushing for starting LF if he hits well in spring training or in Norfolk assuming he doesn't go north with the club. If Nolan doesn't win the job, Montanez could do so. Salazar and Scott could be a quality hitting platoon at first base (look at Oscar's splits vs. Lefties at Norfolk last year...).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this team heading into the season with the current roster, plus a temporary starting catcher (Zaun) and a decent backup SS.

At this point, signing any other players who are not long term solutions at 1b, SS or in the rotation would be a huge step backwards in terms of developing for the future.

I'm as big an O's fan as anyone - but I'd rather suffer through a rough 2009 and give our kids a chance to step up, than sign the Millars and Loopers of the world in a desperate attempt to achieve mediocrity.

[OrangeJerseys]

Certainly not a trade that deserves our praise IMO.

Is this because you don't think Freel is a good pickup? I don't claim to be an expert certainly, nor am I an expert on stats, but this seems like the kind of guy we want on our team while we're supposedly "rebuilding".

[BaltimoreTerp]

Is this because you don't think Freel is a good pickup? I don't claim to be an expert certainly, nor am I an expert on stats, but this seems like the kind of guy we want on our team while we're supposedly "rebuilding".

In what possible way?

[RShack]

Ok

I am willing to call the Ramon trade:

"one that MacPhail had to make" or

" the best MacPhail was going to find"

However it still does not qualify as a "decent trade" IMO.

Another factoid:

When last season started, DT was explicit about how he wanted/expected vets like Payton and Ramon to step up and show leadership, be a role model for others, etc.

IMO, he had more success with Payton in this regard than with Ramon.

So, while I don't know what DT thinks, I can imagine him telling AM that he wanted Ramon to get out of Dodge.

[OrangeJerseys]

In what possible way?

Well, In risking using nothing but cliches, He seems like a gamer. Somebody who leaves it on the field. IMO, I want the young guys to see that and feed off of it. I only get to see a few games a year on tv so I'm at a loss to know how the O's play together, to see if there's any fire in them. I've seen it in DCab and Guts, but that's about it.

I know he didn't do well here, but I was really stoked when Eric Byrnes came to Baltimore. Freel seems like the same kind of guy.

[Sports Guy]

Is this because you don't think Freel is a good pickup? I don't claim to be an expert certainly, nor am I an expert on stats, but this seems like the kind of guy we want on our team while we're supposedly "rebuilding".

Freel would be ok if he was making less money.

But paying him 4 million to do what he does is too much...If he could play SS, he would be worth it but he can't.

The prospects we got weren't anything to write home about although Turner has a chance to be a bench guy for us and admittingly, that does have value since he won't be making any money for the first few years he is here.

[OrangeJerseys]

Freel would be ok if he was making less money.

But paying him 4 million to do what he does is too much...If he could play SS, he would be worth it but he can't.

The prospects we got weren't anything to write home about although Turner has a chance to be a bench guy for us and admittingly, that does have value since he won't be making any money for the first few years he is here.

Wow. Shows how much I pay attention. I thought he was getting about half that. Thanks SG.

[Aberdeener]

While there is a fair amount of talk about MacPhail bashing in this thread, and I didn't like the Ramon deal. I still have a lot of faith in Andy's approach.

The O's don't have to spend a lot of money to improve. They can draft while signing and trading for lower cost players. Building a core of young players the way Tampa did. SG says it takes too long. And he is right. After 10 losing seasons when Andy arrived, any more losing is too much.

However, it is a proven approach if a team drafts and develops players well. If two more years of losing means a 5-10 year run of winning, I will sign up for that.

The Tejada and Bedard trades for 10 players earned Andy some time IMO. Certainly until April.

These next three months are Andy's time to shine. I think the O's will see more changes like last year. I still have faith.

I would love to field a team of homegrown players, but I just dont trust that we can draft the right people and that they'll develop as expected. I have nightmares of Chris Smith and Hayden Penn (i know, i know, Penn still has a shot this year), and D-Cab's failed expectations. I cringe whenever I see people drawing up projected lineups for 2010 and they've got Rowell and Snyder in the lineup. I don't see those guys becoming major league starters. And if those guys are our best bets position player-wise, we're in deep, deep trouble.

[mweb]

There really isn't anything urgent that needs to be done. We're not going to sign anyone who actually helps us win at this point, just placeholders.

Anybody who really cares about which retread we sign to start 30 games this year so that Tillman, Matusz, and Arrieta can develop in the minors has misplaced priorities, IMO. As long as we don't commit any money in 2010 and beyond, I'll be happy with whomever we sign. 2009 is irrelevant in terms of wins and losses.

I would love for us to extend Markakis and Roberts, though. Those would be wise moves for the future. Or trading Roberts if he refuses to extend, which I think is likely.

I haven't gotten through the whole thread, but it seems that this post may not be getting the attention it deserves, so I'm quoting it.

Do I want the O's to sign Hendrickson or Redding? No. I would like Sheets, Penny, Pedro, or one or both of the Japanese guys. I would also like to add a guy like Dunn or Bradley. But I don't want them so we can win 75 games instead of 68 or whatever. I want them because they are guys that may be able to build up their value enough to warrant a good return in a trade or draft picks, some of them can likely still help out in 2-4 years, and they can bring a few more fans to the ballpark.

So you're right that next year is not supposed to be a year where we win much, and we need to have some patience regarding when we'll contend. Very few thought this team would contend next year, but many, even those who claim to support a rebuild, and said they didn't expect to win in 2009, seem to think our record is important next year.

So in the grand scheme of things, it's not important if we sign a guy like Hendrickson. Now I will however, be quite upset if they sign 3 pitchers of that ilk rather than giving some of our young guys a chance, same with signing Hinske or Casey instead of giving Reimold/Montanez a chance.

[Sports Guy]

I haven't gotten through the whole thread, but it seems that this post may not be getting the attention it deserves, so I'm quoting it.

Do I want the O's to sign Hendrickson or Redding? No. I would like Sheets, Penny, Pedro, or one or both of the Japanese guys. I would also like to add a guy like Dunn or Bradley. But I don't want them so we can win 75 games instead of 68 or whatever. I want them because they are guys that may be able to build up their value enough to warrant a good return in a trade or draft picks, some of them can likely still help out in 2-4 years, and they can bring a few more fans to the ballpark.

So you're right that next year is not supposed to be a year where we win much, and we need to have some patience regarding when we'll contend. Very few thought this team would contend next year, but many, even those who claim to support a rebuild, and said they didn't expect to win in 2009, seem to think our record is important next year.

So in the grand scheme of things, it's not important if we sign a guy like Hendrickson. Now I will however, be quite upset if they sign 3 pitchers of that ilk rather than giving some of our young guys a chance, same with signing Hinske or Casey instead of giving Reimold/Montanez a chance.

Which is exactly what they are likely going to do.

[ACE]

Another option down - with Penny close to signing with Sox.

Penny is one of the guys I was hoping AM was making progress with.

[wildcard]

Another factoid:

When last season started, DT was explicit about how he wanted/expected vets like Payton and Ramon to step up and show leadership, be a role model for others, etc.

IMO, he had more success with Payton in this regard than with Ramon.

So, while I don't know what DT thinks, I can imagine him telling AM that he wanted Ramon to get out of Dodge.

Oh, I agree. Ramon had wore out his welcome with the O's. It was time to trade him. I just think MacPhail should have gotten more.

If he couldn't then I just have to accept it as a below value trade that he had to make. I just objective to it being called a good or decent trade.

[mweb]

SG - I think this is ALWAYS the case with prospects. Every pitcher beyond every teams' first three pitching prospects is more likely to be a reliever than a starter. That's just the way it is.

By the way, Goldstein remains high on Erbe.

Yep. Out of all the young pitchers we have other than the big 3, I think it's reasonable to think 2 of them are likely to become decent starting pitchers. Picking which two is the hard part. Now if 2 of the big 3 pan out, we have 4 starters that are at least decent. Then you have Guthrie or a free agent fill that last spot. And I agree with SG that the bullpen should be a strength due to the pitchers that can't make it as starters going to the pen.

I agree that very few teams have a better group of starting pitching prospects.

[mweb]

Which is exactly what they are likely going to do.

Possibly, but I'll actually wait until that happens before I rip AM for it.