Anyone else seen enough of Odor?

[Sports Guy]

The Arroyo stuff was funny last night.  Odor obviously has that rep.  Players hated JBat too it seemed.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Sports Guy

[baltfan]

1 hour ago, jabba72 said:

I think its 50-50, Hyde clearly prefers Odor and Elias might be allowing him to make the call. Elias did call up Vavra so there may have been a hint there like "heres another option for 2B".

They like Hyde, but they aren't letting him run the show.  The Astros, the Nationals, and nearly every other tear down team has gotten rid of the manager that started with the team and then subbed him.  Hyde looks like he could survive, but he would be just surviving.  There is no chance that Elias et al doesn't have an opinion and Hyde isn't following their opinion.

[baltfan]

20 minutes ago, owknows said:

 

Field: Solid defender that profiles best long term at 2B. Average range that plays up because of instincts and a quick first step. Reads angles well and makes more difficult plays than he should. Good footwork when he gets to the ball; exceptionally soft hands; quick on the pivot; turns an excellent on the double play. Adequate enough to play SS in a pinch but 2B is his primary future. Grade: 55

https://www.prospectslive.com/scoutingreports/terrin-vavra

Defensively, Vavra profiles best at second but also showed well in center field in a small sample last summer.

Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 45 | Run: 50 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 45

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/orioles/terrin-vavra-679631

If you look at the historical scouting reports on Vavra, they're all pretty positive defensively. Particularly at 2B. But his slow-roll promotion to the majors coupled with Hyde's reluctance to play him at 2B, started some (in my opinion unfounded) speculation regarding him being a poor defensive player. Which there is ZERO historical evidence to support. And which is unfair to the player.

This kind of speculation eventually becomes self-reinforcing lore as it is passed back and forth on message boards. And it is based solely on Hyde's reluctance to play him at 2B.

Hyde's reluctance to play him at 2B seems as much about Hyde's preference for not upsetting the chemistry of a winning formula, where Odor was recognized as an important source of heart... and a bit of a firebrand. That's been Odor's game from the outset. He has never been particularly good defensively, and he has been particularly awful with the bat this season, (although in fairness to Odor, he occasionally comes up clutch).

Arguments can be made for and against Odor's continued appearance in the lineup at 2B... but objectively, Vavra is at least as good a defender. Arguably better.

 

 

It seems that you are the one speculating.  What evidence do you have that Hyde makes the calls re: who plays how much vs. the front office?  What is your basis for believing that this is a Hyde issue vs. Elias issue?  Do you really think the stats you are citing and reports are superior to what the Orioles have access to?  Do you really believe that if they were equal on defense given Vavra's obvious superiority on offense that Elias would simply allow Hyde to do what he wants?

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, baltfan said:

It seems that you are the one speculating.  What evidence do you have that Hyde makes the calls re: who plays how much vs. the front office?  What is your basis for believing that this is a Hyde issue vs. Elias issue?  Do you really think the stats you are citing and reports are superior to what the Orioles have access to?  Do you really believe that if they were equal on defense given Vavra's obvious superiority on offense that Elias would simply allow Hyde to do what he wants?

Hyde's reasons for not playing Vavra are an irrelevant sidebar to me.

Interesting to speculate on, but admittedly unknowable.

But Vavra's defensive ability is NOT unknowable.

And my point is that neither statistically or historically is Vavra a poor defender.

 

 

[Jammer7]

3 hours ago, owknows said:

Yes. I know. You said that earlier.

My point was that the statistical evidence seems to call what you think you've seen into question.

Respectfully, that evidence is weak, at best. We disagree, and that’s cool. Hopefully, it works out soon, either way. 

[owknows]

3 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

Respectfully, that evidence is weak, at best. We disagree, and that’s cool. Hopefully, it works out soon, either way. 

I'm relying on scouting reports, historical performance, and statistics.

I appreciate that you hold a different opinion... I probably haven't seen him play 2B as much as you have...

Difference of opinion is part of the fun of a discussion forum.

I appreciate you taking the high road.

[Frobby]

I think to understand why Hyde has been relatively satisfied with Odor, you just need to look at 2021.   That year, we had nine different players play 2B.   Collectively, they hit .182/.245/.282 and turned 81 DPs all season.  Compared to that, Odor looks like Joe Morgan.   Now, I know that when you look hard at Odor, it’s easy to see that he’s a replacement level player.   But we were three levels below replacement last year.  Odor has been a significant upgrade on offense, has been very good turning the DP, and has provided some leadership and moxie that has been recognized and repeatedly called out by the younger players.  So, that’s why Hyde likes him.  Odor had a very low bar to clear, and he cleared it.  

I think it’s pretty likely Odor will lose some playing time the rest of the way, but I doubt it will be very dramatic.  Hyde’s not the type of manager to pull the rug out from under a respected veteran.   He’s started 88 of 121 games (73%).   Maybe it will be more like 50-60% down the stretch.   

Interesting fact: the O’s are 42-46 when Odor starts, 21-12 when he doesn’t.  But, they are 22-13 in his starts during July/August.  Before that they were 20-33.   

 

[rm5678]

4 hours ago, LA2 said:

When is Vavra due back? Must be depressing to Richie Martin that he hasn't had an at-bat since July 3rd. But he did have that two-triples game: how many players with long careers ever manage to do that?

I believe it's 3 games so if that's the case then he'll be back tomorrow.

[NCRaven]

30 minutes ago, rm5678 said:

I believe it's 3 games so if that's the case then he'll be back tomorrow.

Correct.  Player must stay on for 24 hours and can’t be on it for more than 72 hours.

[Moose Milligan]

52 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think to understand why Hyde has been relatively satisfied with Odor, you just need to look at 2021.   That year, we had nine different players play 2B.   Collectively, they hit .182/.245/.282 and turned 81 DPs all season.  Compared to that, Odor looks like Joe Morgan.   Now, I know that when you look hard at Odor, it’s easy to see that he’s a replacement level player.   But we were three levels below replacement last year.  Odor has been a significant upgrade on offense, has been very good turning the DP, and has provided some leadership and moxie that has been recognized and repeatedly called out by the younger players.  So, that’s why Hyde likes him.  Odor had a very low bar to clear, and he cleared it.  

I think it’s pretty likely Odor will lose some playing time the rest of the way, but I doubt it will be very dramatic.  Hyde’s not the type of manager to pull the rug out from under a respected veteran.   He’s started 88 of 121 games (73%).   Maybe it will be more like 50-60% down the stretch.   

Interesting fact: the O’s are 42-46 when Odor starts, 21-12 when he doesn’t.  But, they are 22-13 in his starts during July/August.  Before that they were 20-33.   

 

I think this is the best summary to answer the constant cries of "HoW cAn tHeY kEeP pUtTiNg OdOr OuT ThErE?!?!?!"

 

[forphase1]

19 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think this is the best summary to answer the constant cries of "HoW cAn tHeY kEeP pUtTiNg OdOr OuT ThErE?!?!?!"

 

Not really.   Just because he was a significant improvement to the black hole that was 2nd base last year doesn't mean he's the best option we have now.  It answers why he's played so much up to this point perhaps,  but not why we continue going forward when we have likely better options.  

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Not really.   Just because he was a significant improvement to the black hole that was 2nd base last year doesn't mean he's the best option we have now.  It answers why he's played so much up to this point perhaps,  but not why we continue going forward when we have likely better options.  

That's really the point right there.  

I agree, we likely have better options at the moment but he's hurdled a low bar as Frobby has pointed out.

[wildcard]

9 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Not really.   Just because he was a significant improvement to the black hole that was 2nd base last year doesn't mean he's the best option we have now.  It answers why he's played so much up to this point perhaps,  but not why we continue going forward when we have likely better options.  

Westburg next season.

[ChuckS]

24 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Westburg next season.

I’m sure Urias sees plenty of time there too. 

[maybenxtyr]

38 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Westburg next season.

I wonder if they promote him this week instead of Henderson? I really don't get the feeling that they're in a hurry to get Henderson up.