Maybe Frazier can play

[LTO's]

12 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

You bring up some decent points but it's more important for an organizational standpoint to get a guy like Westburg playing time instead of someone like Frazier.  And that's why it's a horrible signing

How much playing time do you want Westburg to get and how much do you expect he will get?

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, turtlebowl said:

I won't say that I disagree with you assessment of the Frazier signing.  I was also totally against it.  But until the season plays out you can't say this was "money poorly spent"

What if Frazier has a career year and plays a large part of a playoff run?  What if we trade him 1/2 way through the season and get a top 10 organizational arm? We can focus on the concern of him blocking a prospect which frustrates many of us.  Like many I want to see Westburg have a legit opportunity to win the 2nd base job.  But I think we are all judging what we saw with Odor last year and making assumptions based off of that.  If it plays out similar to Odors situation then I will be at the gates with pitchforks standing right next to you. Just think it is too early to make the stance that Frazier was a horrible signing. 

My stance on this is pretty clear.

I actually don’t believe he’s done as an effective player. I mean, he might be but I’m not writing off the chance that he can be a 2ish WAR guy, mainly because of his defense.

My disdain for this deal has far less to do with his expected performance (although my expectation is that he sucks at the plate but maybe the defense can make up for it somewhat) but more about the blocking of prospects.

I was very much in favor of how this team was handing the offseason up until this deal and the Eovaldi stuff.

For me, part of that was because I was against ANY MI addition, including Correa or Turner, because I feel it’s a waste of money and roster spot.

So, I don’t really care how he performs this year or if he nets us a good prospect.

I am judging this deal at the time it is made and it’s an awful decision.

[TommyPickles]

I think people are just annoyed because the Frazier signing feels emblematic of other frustrating trends with this organization over the past two years.

 

-People were fed up with how many at bats Odor got last season.

-People are fed up with how poorly stop gap players like Chirinos, Owings, Aguilar, Phillips, and Odor played last season.

-People are dissapointed we opted to make marginal off-season moves and maintain a below average payroll, after coming so close last year and being led to believe there would be more money spent.

-People are tired of waiting for prospects and are worried this signals further delays.

 

But I do agree with @Frobby that a lot of ink has been spilled over this frustration.

[Moose Milligan]

12 minutes ago, LTO's said:

How much playing time do you want Westburg to get and how much do you expect he will get?

If it were left up to me, there'd be no Frazier on the team this year and it'd be up to Westburg/Ortiz to battle it out in ST to take the job.  

As it stands, I think Westburg gets anywhere from 25% to, hopefully, 50% playing time at 2nd base this year.  

But that 8 million means that Frazier will have every opportunity to fail this season.  

[Ripken]

Can't wait until he starts the season with a 2-for-27.  Should be good times here.

[interloper]

8 minutes ago, Ripken said:

Can't wait until he starts the season with a 2-for-27.  Should be good times here.

Lol. I'm rooting for Frazier so hard, man. I really am. The good version of Frazier I think actually does a lot for this team in terms of defense and contact, lack of strikeouts, etc. 

I'm rooting for this to not go the way we all think it's going to go. And how it's likely going to go... lol

[turtlebowl]

36 minutes ago, interloper said:

Lol. I'm rooting for Frazier so hard, man. I really am. The good version of Frazier I think actually does a lot for this team in terms of defense and contact, lack of strikeouts, etc. 

I'm rooting for this to not go the way we all think it's going to go. And how it's likely going to go... lol

The point you are making though is the other side of this.  You can's tell me that if Frazier is batting .285, has an OB% of .360, playing a solid second base and the O's are 12 games over .500 in July, this discussion about players being blocked will be a thing.  I want to see these young guys play as much as the next guy.  But in reality the goal is to win and until they aren't winning I think it is hard to be so critical of the Frazier signing.

On the other hand, if he isn't performing and still getting most of the reps while young players are being denied opportunities then we have a huge issue. 

I actually wanted Vavra to get the initial opportunity because I really think he could be a productive offensive player.  That now appears to be off the table also.  So again if they aren't winning and they block opportunities for these guys then I will quickly become disgruntled.   

[Explosivo]

If y'all end up being wrong about Frazier, McCann, Irvin and Gibson, will y'all admit to it and start looking at future decisions through a different lens? My hope is yes, but likely not. We will see this year if the moves made have an impact, time will tell, but y'all are broken records at this point.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Explosivo

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Explosivo said:

but y'all are broken records at this point.

As opposed to the variance in your own posts?

I've got a kettle for you to meet.

[Explosivo]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

As opposed to the variance in your own posts?

I've got a kettle for you to meet.

In my defense, they are kindly in response to the same arguments made over and over. Retorting them is not the same.

[emmett16]

My 2 cents on Frazier.  At the risk of sounding like an Elias apologist, I believe he was brought in as the last development hurdle for Westburg.  Ortiz still has some time and ABs needed in AAA.  His final developmental hurdle will be Westburg himself.  Elias forte is obviously developing hitters and I think this is just the last part of his plan for Westburg.  I'm of the thought that Elias brough in Frazier as motivation and to push Westburg & Ortiz.  He hasn't rushed anyone and has been very methodical in his development plan.  I don't think he wanted to simply hand Westburg a job at the risk of him falling flat on his face.  Having read a bunch about the mental make-up of Westburg I can only imagine how much work he put in this off-season after the Frazier signing.  I don't know that I agree with the move, but I can see his reasoning for it.  It really doesn't bother me that much.  

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

In my defense, they are kindly in response to the same arguments made over and over. Retorting them is not the same.

I don't think your responses are "warm-hearted" or "gentle".

You do not get a gold star.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

My 2 cents on Frazier.  At the risk of sounding like an Elias apologist, I believe he was brought in as the last development hurdle for Westburg.  Ortiz still has some time and ABs needed in AAA.  His final developmental hurdle will be Westburg himself.  Elias forte is obviously developing hitters and I think this is just the last part of his plan for Westburg.  I'm of the thought that Elias brough in Frazier as motivation and to push Westburg & Ortiz.  He hasn't rushed anyone and has been very methodical in his development plan.  I don't think he wanted to simply hand Westburg a job at the risk of him falling flat on his face.  Having read a bunch about the mental make-up of Westburg I can only imagine how much work he put in this off-season after the Frazier signing.  I don't know that I agree with the move, but I can see his reasoning for it.  It really doesn't bother me that much.  

How does that work?

How is Frazier a hurdle for Westburg?

Does he have to defeat him in a kumite?

 

Have we heard anything about either Westburg or Ortiz needed something to motivate them?  Have they been reported to not be hard workers and I missed it?

[Frobby]

19 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

If y'all end up being wrong about Frazier, McCann, Irvin and Gibson, will y'all admit to it and start looking at future decisions through a different lens? My hope is yes, but likely not. We will see this year if the moves made have an impact, time will tell, but y'all are broken records at this point.

Who are y’all?   I don’t think everyone has the same opinion of each of these transactions.  

[turtlebowl]

3 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

My 2 cents on Frazier.  At the risk of sounding like an Elias apologist, I believe he was brought in as the last development hurdle for Westburg.  Ortiz still has some time and ABs needed in AAA.  His final developmental hurdle will be Westburg himself.  Elias forte is obviously developing hitters and I think this is just the last part of his plan for Westburg.  I'm of the thought that Elias brough in Frazier as motivation and to push Westburg & Ortiz.  He hasn't rushed anyone and has been very methodical in his development plan.  I don't think he wanted to simply hand Westburg a job at the risk of him falling flat on his face.  Having read a bunch about the mental make-up of Westburg I can only imagine how much work he put in this off-season after the Frazier signing.  I don't know that I agree with the move, but I can see his reasoning for it.  It really doesn't bother me that much.  

If you are on the cusp of making it to the show and you need extra motivation to make you work hard then that is a player I wouldn't have a lot of faith in.  

Maybe Elias didn't want to hand Westburg the job but if competition was truly his motive then why spend 8 million when you could of found another body for cheaper to challenge Westburg.

I actually think Elias signed him as a what if, meaning if a trade option became available he would be able to trade Westburg knowing that he had Frazier there to hold the fort down until the other MI prospects showed they were ready.  We know Elias isn't going to rush a prospect so this signing protected that from happening.