Gunnar Henderson 2023

[Malike]

If your range is so bad that you don't get to the ball, you'll almost never make an error. Great fielders have the most opportunities and more errors, which makes errors a trash statistic to evaluate how good a defender is.

[now]

4 hours ago, Three Run Homer said:

It was a terrible play and it cost us the game.  To be fair, he won us the game on Friday.    

Also... Hays' automatic GB with sacks full was a terrible AB and it cost us the game. To be fair, his HR in the 6th brought us within striking distance on Friday. 

[Frobby]

9 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

Gunnar isn't even in the top 30 shortstops in the MLB by total chances at shortstop. He has 182 there compared to 310 for Seager, 470 for Pena, 324 for Bichette, 416 for Arcia etc. And most shortstops get far more chances than most third basemen plus the higher degree of difficulty. So if despite all of that Gunnar still has more raw errors than some of those guys, it doesn't exactly reflect well on him.

Gunnar doesn’t have 10 errors at SS.  He has 6.   

[Frobby]

Here is what the advanced metrics say about Gunnar at SS (406 innings)

OAA +1

UZR +4.3

Rtot +6

Rdrs +8

He is slightly more error-prone than the average SS, with a .967 fielding % compared to league average .974.

Mateo’s numbers (735 innings) are:

OAA +2

UZR +5.3

Rtot +4

Rdrs +4

Fielding % .974

Despite playing fewer innings, Henderson scores better on a raw basis on both Rtot and Rdrs, and on a per inning basis he scores better on UZR, too.   They’re basically the same on OAA on a per inning basis.  Mateo has a small edge on fielding %.  When I say small, over Henderson’s 183 chances, it would amount to one extra error by Henderson compared to Mateo.

 

[Just Regular]

I wonder if he'd been developed more intensively as a shortstop if by yesterday he might have had a bigger database in his head what to do on that kind of play.

I'll take the good with the bad though....guys with the talent to think there's nothing they can't do on a baseball field are pleasant to have around.

[Sanity Check]

10 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

To be clear, I didn't say that Gunnar should be moved off of short. I asked what Hyde thinks about Gunnar at short. Especially after today when the worst-case scenario occurred.

Why has Mateo not only remained in Baltimore but also continued to get starts? Gunnar is in the lineup every single day, but he's not at short every day. Doesn't that imply Hyde has questions about Gunnar's defense? Baseball managers tend to be the types who value experience much more than those of us who post here.

As to people saying that all players make errors, there are errors and then there are errors. This error reflected on Gunnar's inexperience. It simply isn't worth risking a throw with that degree of difficulty given the situation (one-run game with a ground ball pitcher on the mound). It wasn't simply that he let a grounder go through his legs or dropped a line drive; he set himself up for failure with the route he took to the ball and then compounded the mistake by making a low-probability throw. I don't think Mateo (or most veterans; please don't pigeonhole all of your angst about Jorge on me) makes an error that looks so ridiculous. Again, the sort of things that managers care about.

I don't think Hyde has questions about Gunnar at short.  I think Hyde feels that Mateo is the better option there if both Mateo and Henderson are in the field at the same time, and Henderson is the better option at 3rd.  Mateo has very few reps - ever - at third base because of his athleticism.

The rant about the error is just an overreaction to an athlete who tried to make a play, and didn't make it successfully.  We see that play made all the time, it's just that this time it didn't work.  I know that there are times when Gunnar MADE a similar play.  This time he didn't.  If the throw was on target, the runner would have been out.  Was it an easy play?  No.  Did we like the result?  No.  But I can't fault him for trying to make that play.

[Tony-OH]

10 hours ago, Malike said:

If your range is so bad that you don't get to the ball, you'll almost never make an error. Great fielders have the most opportunities and more errors, which makes errors a trash statistic to evaluate how good a defender is.

That's a little extreme. Errors do tell you how consistent a fielder is. Not all fielders commit more errors because they get to more balls. Some are just bad fielders so I would not call errors a "trash" statistic. Is it the only statistic you should look at defensively, nope, but a player who makes a lot of errors regardless o how many balls they get too can be troublesome.

Saying that, I don't believe errors have been a big problem for Gunnar this year. Considering he's bounced back and forth between SS and 3B, I think he's done a pretty good job. He just made a bad error in a key part of the game yesterday. It happens.

As was pointed out in this thread, Mateo has thrown away several routine plays late in games and he's the team's best defensive SS overall. Sometime errors happen at the worse time where they are clearly magnified.

 

 

[Sanity Check]

3 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

I wonder if he'd been developed more intensively as a shortstop if by yesterday he might have had a bigger database in his head what to do on that kind of play.

I'll take the good with the bad though....guys with the talent to think there's nothing they can't do on a baseball field are pleasant to have around.

His head was in the right place, he just didn't make a good throw.  Even the best pitchers throw a wild pitch every once in a while.  Let's not over-complicate and over-analyze it.  It happened.  God forbid any of us make a physical error in anything we do ever.  And let's please stop acting like these guys have to be perfect every time....it doesn't reflect well on "us" if we really expect that.

[Tony-OH]

11 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

To be clear, I didn't say that Gunnar should be moved off of short. I asked what Hyde thinks about Gunnar at short. Especially after today when the worst-case scenario occurred.

Why has Mateo not only remained in Baltimore but also continued to get starts? Gunnar is in the lineup every single day, but he's not at short every day. Doesn't that imply Hyde has questions about Gunnar's defense? Baseball managers tend to be the types who value experience much more than those of us who post here.

As to people saying that all players make errors, there are errors and then there are errors. This error reflected on Gunnar's inexperience. It simply isn't worth risking a throw with that degree of difficulty given the situation (one-run game with a ground ball pitcher on the mound). It wasn't simply that he let a grounder go through his legs or dropped a line drive; he set himself up for failure with the route he took to the ball and then compounded the mistake by making a low-probability throw. I don't think Mateo (or most veterans; please don't pigeonhole all of your angst about Jorge on me) makes an error that looks so ridiculous. Again, the sort of things that managers care about.

I do think if Hyde has to put his best defensive lineup on the field in the 9th and can put whatever and whoever in positions, he's putting Mateo at SS and Gunnar at 3B. 

Gunnar has shown to be a good defensive SS overall (the numbers prove that out), but Mateo has the experience factor that managers like. 

 

[Just Regular]

I also think its connected people are spun up because it was one of the first 9th innings minus Felix.  

The Orioles run prevention unit getting challenged by that kind of a play is something that will occur a lot more frequently now with the defense no longer enjoying the MLB best strikeout rate.

[Sanity Check]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

That's a little extreme. Errors do tell you how consistent a fielder is. Not all fielders commit more errors because they get to more balls. Some are just bad fielders so I would not call errors a "trash" statistic. Is it the only statistic you should look at defensively, nope, but a player who makes a lot of errors regardless o how many balls they get too can be troublesome.

Saying that, I don't believe errors have been a big problem for Gunnar this year. Considering he's bounced back and forth between SS and 3B, I think he's done a pretty good job. He just made a bad error in a key part of the game yesterday. It happens.

As was pointed out in this thread, Mateo has thrown away several routine plays late in games and he's the team's best defensive SS overall. Sometime errors happen at the worse time where they are clearly magnified.

 

 

The funny thing about this post - and I'm not being disrespectful, because I am laughing a bit - it that when I defended Adam Frazier's defense and his lack of errors, I was shot down (not by you) unmercifully with the argument was that he doesn't get to balls.    Crazy how things work.....

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

That's a little extreme. Errors do tell you how consistent a fielder is. Not all fielders commit more errors because they get to more balls. Some are just bad fielders so I would not call errors a "trash" statistic. Is it the only statistic you should look at defensively, nope, but a player who makes a lot of errors regardless o how many balls they get too can be troublesome.

Saying that, I don't believe errors have been a big problem for Gunnar this year. Considering he's bounced back and forth between SS and 3B, I think he's done a pretty good job. He just made a bad error in a key part of the game yesterday. It happens.

As was pointed out in this thread, Mateo has thrown away several routine plays late in games and he's the team's best defensive SS overall. Sometime errors happen at the worse time where they are clearly magnified.

 

 

I have a hard time taking errors seriously when I see some of the plays that aren't considered errors by the Official Scorer.

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I have a hard time taking errors seriously when I see some of the plays that aren't considered errors by the Official Scorer.

I agree that the new kinder gentler official scorers have created less errors then 20 years or more ago. Somewhere along the line someone told them that if a play requires any difficulty at all it should not be considered an error. I disagree. 

Errors can be subjective of course which is why they are not the be all, end all defensive statistic, but they are not a "trash" stat. I do think taken into the entire myriad of better defensive stats from fangraphs and statcast, they can help shape the use of a player. 

In other words, I may not want a guy at a position late in a one run game if he tends to make more errors than a guy who may have a little less range or arm but is very consistent and doesn't make many errors. 

I just want to point out that I'm not saying that about Gunnar. I'm perfectly ok with him at SS or 3B late in games. 

[banks703]

The truth is that if the ball had taken a slightly different hop and not gone out of play, that error by Gunnar just goes into the books as an infield hit and it isn't even being discussed. It wasn't the best throw but it also wasn't like the one that he air-mailed that hit the cameraman in the face. 

There isn't one play in any game of any sport that costs a game. Did that play hurt the O's chances of finishing the comeback bid? Certainly but so did a myriad of other things. We could cite the obvious failure of the team with no outs and the bases loaded. We could cite the embarrassing strike zone. There was not one play that lost the game for them yesterday.

I've been as strong an advocate for Mateo as we've had on this board and while I do still consider him to be the more dynamic defender at SS, Gunnar to me has closed that gap considerably this year. As @Tony-OH mentioned, the fact that he's bounced back and forth between SS and 3B (sometimes in the same game), where he's carrying an almost identical .968 fielding % to his .967 fielding % at SS, makes his progress as a SS all the more impressive to me.

It wasn't a good throw. Let's be clear about that. With that said, I'd like to have seen ROH come off of the bag to try to keep the ball from going past him. They were probably not going to get the out either way. I love the confidence on D to make plays and yeah, that's one that Gunnar probably puts in his pocket next time but I'd like to have seen the 1B do a little more to pick up Gunnar there. 

[Sanity Check]

8 minutes ago, banks703 said:

 

It wasn't a good throw. Let's be clear about that. With that said, I'd like to have seen ROH come off of the bag to try to keep the ball from going past him. They were probably not going to get the out either way. I love the confidence on D to make plays and yeah, that's one that Gunnar probably puts in his pocket next time but I'd like to have seen the 1B do a little more to pick up Gunnar there. 

Actually, if you look at the replay, the throw is past O'Hearn before the runner hits the bag, so that same throw - on target - gets the runner.  But it wasn't an easy play.

I will disagree that Gunnar puts it in his pocket next time.  When the next time comes, I still think he tries to make the play.  Had he just held onto that ball, this board would be going crazy about why he chose not to throw it.   You/We expect your shortstop to try and make that play, because more times than not - just not yesterday - that's a makeable play by an athletic infielder.