TT: It's time to bring up Colton Cowser

[forphase1]

1 minute ago, baltfan said:

These are Elias’s guys. He drafted them. He developed them. If he thought they were better, why would he not want to show them off?

Good question.  Be it service time, loyalty to vets, etc., there are reasons beyond just performance the keeps guys in the minors.  Look at last year.  Odor was terrible, yet was on the roster over much more talented young guys who where Elias's guys then too.  We had guys MUCH more suited to get at-bats than Aguilar/Odor/Chirinos/Phillips/etc, yet they were on the roster and given chances.  If it was just as simple as being Elias's guys and him wanting to show them off, Adley would have been in the majors sooner, and quite a few of the others still in the minors would have replaced non-Elias guys.  

[Bahama O's Fan]

15 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Good question.  Be it service time, loyalty to vets, etc., there are reasons beyond just performance the keeps guys in the minors.  Look at last year.  Odor was terrible, yet was on the roster over much more talented young guys who where Elias's guys then too.  We had guys MUCH more suited to get at-bats than Aguilar/Odor/Chirinos/Phillips/etc, yet they were on the roster and given chances.  If it was just as simple as being Elias's guys and him wanting to show them off, Adley would have been in the majors sooner, and quite a few of the others still in the minors would have replaced non-Elias guys.  

Yeah, I really can't figure out why we have O'hearn, Vavra, McKenna and Frazier on this team.

[baltfan]

21 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

I sincerely hope this isn't the approach the organization takes. Beyond the human aspect, baseball specifically involves convincing prospects to sign with your organization when they have other options like college, signing with another academy, or staying in your own country. Good luck doing that when you develop a reputation as a franchise that treats players like inventory.

Virtually every team signs virtually everyone they draft. I am sure they aren’t worried.  That being said, it’s in their best interest to use the capital to acquire players that are netter when they have a surplus. 

[baltfan]

24 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Good question.  Be it service time, loyalty to vets, etc., there are reasons beyond just performance the keeps guys in the minors.  Look at last year.  Odor was terrible, yet was on the roster over much more talented young guys who where Elias's guys then too.  We had guys MUCH more suited to get at-bats than Aguilar/Odor/Chirinos/Phillips/etc, yet they were on the roster and given chances.  If it was just as simple as being Elias's guys and him wanting to show them off, Adley would have been in the majors sooner, and quite a few of the others still in the minors would have replaced non-Elias guys.  

What I said doesn’t apply to uberprospects for whom there at least used to be under the old CBA a strong reason to keep them down.  As for vet loyalty, Frazier wasn’t even here last year and has no ties to Elias. As much as people complained about Odor, he created a string clubhouse culture. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by baltfan

[forphase1]

53 minutes ago, baltfan said:

What I said doesn’t apply to uberprospects for whom there at least used to be under the old CBA a strong reason to keep them down.  As for vet loyalty, Frazier wasn’t even here last year and has no ties to Elias. As much as people complained about Odor, he created a string clubhouse culture. 

Odor wasn't here the year before either, yet they had loyalty to the vet they had signed.  Same as we will see this year with Frazier, as that's the standard way we seem to treat things.  That's the fear of this signing, that we will ride that horse long after it should have been put down.  Elias has brought in a ton of guys that had no real ties to him, and they got wasted at-bats.  As to the clubhouse culture, sure, buy into that fairy dust if you'd like.    

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

These guys aren't a deck of trading cards that Mike Elias gets to carry around in his binder to show off at collector conventions. They're not even NFL/NBA draft picks who are making millions of dollars even if they're sitting on the bench. Joey Ortiz signed for $450k four years ago. If you're not going to give a guy like that the shot he has earned, then trade him. That might not strictly be in the O's best interest, but especially in the age of player empowerment, it has to be accounted for.

Ortiz hasn’t had that long an apprenticeship, either in terms of years or games.  He was drafted in June 2019. He didn’t play in 2020 due to COVID.  He only played 35 games in 2021 due to injury.  He’s been moved along pretty rapidly under the circumstances, but only has 42 AAA games under his belt.  So, I’m not really feeling that bad for Ortiz.  He’ll get his shot.  

[wildcard]

6 hours ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

Yeah, I really can't figure out why we have O'hearn, Vavra, McKenna and Frazier on this team.

Probably because the team is 16-8.   Don't mess with success.

We may see more of O'Hearn  vs righties because Mountcastle is not hitting them.

McKenna is the only backup in center.

Frazier because of 8m.  But he does not have to start.

Hyde likes Vavra versatility but he may be the first to go.

[baltfan]

5 hours ago, forphase1 said:

Odor wasn't here the year before either, yet they had loyalty to the vet they had signed.  Same as we will see this year with Frazier, as that's the standard way we seem to treat things.  That's the fear of this signing, that we will ride that horse long after it should have been put down.  Elias has brought in a ton of guys that had no real ties to him, and they got wasted at-bats.  As to the clubhouse culture, sure, buy into that fairy dust if you'd like.    

They were so blindly loyal to Odor that they brought him back for another year to keep a younger, better guy down. Oh…wait..he’s not here?  

As for clubhouse culture not mattering, especially for a young team, go back to 2000 where that take was still believed and revolutionary.   Every data driven baseball executive has learned that people aren’t robots, not everyone can close, and work environment matters especially when you are trying to teach young players how to win.  

Here is Theo Epstein on the Cubs:

“Every year I did the job I just developed a greater appreciation for how much the human element matters and how much more you can achieve as a team when you have players who care about winning, care about each other, develop those relationships, have those conversations… it creates an environment where the sum is greater than the parts.”

Andrew Friedman from the Dodgers on the same thing:

"There are narratives out there in terms of if you use information to help guide decisions. But at the core of what we do, we’re involved with trying to provide the best environment and culture for people to thrive. I don’t think that’s different in any business. It was something that was really important to us when I was with the Rays and it’s something that’s really important to us now. I think when guys are more comfortable, they perform better.“

 

[IPlayGM]

Here is how I see the roster changes, although I have no idea of the timeline.

1. Cowser up, Vavra down. This has been discussed plenty here, but this moves Hays to right, Santander primarily to DH. Will still see him some in the OF.

2. Westburg/Ortiz for Urias. I think this one takes longer to happen because we have to make a trade. With the lefty bat being a priority, plus the 8m, Frazier stays and becomes your utility guy at this point. I have always thought that it’s Urias that is the odd guy out once an infielder comes up.

3. This is more of a question: Does the addition of Cowser and his ability to play CF make McKenna vulnerable? I really don’t think so, just because he is a RH bat, and they seem to value his ability to be a PR/defensive replacement.

4. I don’t see a logical replacement in the minors for O’Hearn until you are ready for Heston, but that move would necessitate more than just a one for one switch.

I think the way we have this roster currently constructed makes it a little more difficult to get some of these guys up here. I am really interested to see if Elias swings a trade at the deadline, it just seems inevitable.

[Bahama O's Fan]

16 minutes ago, IPlayGM said:

Here is how I see the roster changes, although I have no idea of the timeline.

1. Cowser up, Vavra down. This has been discussed plenty here, but this moves Hays to right, Santander primarily to DH. Will still see him some in the OF.

2. Westburg/Ortiz for Urias. I think this one takes longer to happen because we have to make a trade. With the lefty bat being a priority, plus the 8m, Frazier stays and becomes your utility guy at this point. I have always thought that it’s Urias that is the odd guy out once an infielder comes up.

3. This is more of a question: Does the addition of Cowser and his ability to play CF make McKenna vulnerable? I really don’t think so, just because he is a RH bat, and they seem to value his ability to be a PR/defensive replacement.

4. I don’t see a logical replacement in the minors for O’Hearn until you are ready for Heston, but that move would necessitate more than just a one for one switch.

I think the way we have this roster currently constructed makes it a little more difficult to get some of these guys up here. I am really interested to see if Elias swings a trade at the deadline, it just seems inevitable.

I think Westburg/Ortiz for McKenna. As you said, Cowser makes McKenna vulnerable. Vavra is also an IF, so bring up the IF. Frazier can also play the OF, plus you have the DH spot with an OF in it mostly. 

[Aristotelian]

21 minutes ago, IPlayGM said:

Here is how I see the roster changes, although I have no idea of the timeline.

1. Cowser up, Vavra down. This has been discussed plenty here, but this moves Hays to right, Santander primarily to DH. Will still see him some in the OF.

2. Westburg/Ortiz for Urias. I think this one takes longer to happen because we have to make a trade. With the lefty bat being a priority, plus the 8m, Frazier stays and becomes your utility guy at this point. I have always thought that it’s Urias that is the odd guy out once an infielder comes up.

3. This is more of a question: Does the addition of Cowser and his ability to play CF make McKenna vulnerable? I really don’t think so, just because he is a RH bat, and they seem to value his ability to be a PR/defensive replacement.

4. I don’t see a logical replacement in the minors for O’Hearn until you are ready for Heston, but that move would necessitate more than just a one for one switch.

I think the way we have this roster currently constructed makes it a little more difficult to get some of these guys up here. I am really interested to see if Elias swings a trade at the deadline, it just seems inevitable.

Santander DH would make the OHearn guy expendable. You could go with a third C to enable pinch hitting for the non-Adley C without losing the DH.  Ensure McAnn never faces a RHP.

[AlbNYfan]

You are all right. The O's being 8-16, it's time to blow it up and play for 2024.

[luismatos4prez]

Westburg, Norby, Stowers, and Hall for Cease* and let's go get a championship. 

* I put very little thought into that proposal, but with an ace and healthy John Means, I think this team is a serious WS contender. 

[forphase1]

46 minutes ago, AlbNYfan said:

You are all right. The O's being 8-16, it's time to blow it up and play for 2024.

No one is throwing in the towel on this season, rather we are looking at ways we can get even better.  Bringing up the kids to replace low performing guys who are currently on the roster is not blowing it up, rather it is bringing up more talent to hopefully improve the team versus leaving that production in the minors.  

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

As you said, Cowser makes McKenna vulnerable.

I think you misread that. 
 

1 hour ago, IPlayGM said:

Here is how I see the roster changes, although I have no idea of the timeline….

1. Cowser up, Vavra down.

 

1 hour ago, IPlayGM said:

3. This is more of a question: Does the addition of Cowser and his ability to play CF make McKenna vulnerable? I really don’t think so, just because he is a RH bat, and they seem to value his ability to be a PR/defensive replacement.