Joey Ortiz 2023

[Aristotelian]

19 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

All the beliefs are personal.  When Ortiz wins a gold glove like Urias I''ll happily put him in Urias' category.  With Westburg, Gunnar, and Holliday, I see no future for him.  

Injuries and other randomness happen. Way too early to bank on any of these (although it's looking good) and too early to rule out Ortiz. Time will sort these things out. I would not be in a rush to trade Ortiz just because he is one rung down in the pecking order.

[Baltimorecuse]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

First off, my "beliefs" aren't personal, they're my scouting observations from watching him throughout his minor league career. Second, you are welcome to your personal "beliefs" but I think most people would think you are way off the mark on the quality of Ortiz as a player. 

Now, could he be a guy used as a trade chip because of the depth of the infield prospects? Perhaps. But Ortiz is the best defensive shortstop in the system and that includes Holliday so I wouldn't say right now that he has no future in the Orioles infield. 

It just depends on the way the Orioles decide to go. Right now Henderson is fine at SS, but he's always made his share of errors. Ortiz is much more sure handed there and the Orioles know this. The Henderson, Ortiz, Westburg infield could be the everyday infield next year with Urias sticking around as the backup to each while spelling a left-handed hitting first baseman and each of the others at times.

When Holliday is ready, then they can worry about that and perhaps it will be more clear on who should be moved, but that time is not arrived and probably won't be here until at the very earliest mid to late next year.

Most people didn't believe a lot of things that turned out to be true.  I've never run with the crowd.  I used to call on a very successful business man who had a great sign behind his desk that said, "If two men in a business always agree, one of them isn't necessary."  

[Baltimorecuse]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Injuries and other randomness happen. Way too early to bank on any of these (although it's looking good) and too early to rule out Ortiz. Time will sort these things out. I would not be in a rush to trade Ortiz just because he is one rung down in the pecking order.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to replace Urias.  I think he's a gamer.  So does Palmer.

[NCRaven]

If a potential 2024 Henderson-Ortiz-Westburg infield proves to be a winner, could Holliday be Mullins successor in CF?

[owknows]

52 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

All the beliefs are personal.  When Ortiz wins a gold glove like Urias I''ll happily put him in Urias' category.  With Westburg, Gunnar, and Holliday, I see no future for him.  

That's ok. He doesn't see one for you either.

[Spy Fox]

3 hours ago, NCRaven said:

If a potential 2024 Henderson-Ortiz-Westburg infield proves to be a winner, could Holliday be Mullins successor in CF?

I think Cowser would still be in front of Holliday for post Mullins CF in that scenario. 

And I have no idea what to expect trade wise but I’d guess trading at least one of Westburg/Ortiz is a good bit more likely than moving Holliday to OF.

[banks703]

3 hours ago, NCRaven said:

If a potential 2024 Henderson-Ortiz-Westburg infield proves to be a winner, could Holliday be Mullins successor in CF?

Prior to them drafting EBJ, I would have agreed that CF would be a possibility for Holliday if he doesn't stick in the infield but I see that as a worst-case scenario for him. Unless something catastrophic occurs with his development as an infielder, I don't see him in the outfield. I personally feel that he is destined for 2B. 

 

[banks703]

4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Ortiz is the best defensive shortstop in the system and that includes Holliday so I wouldn't say right now that he has no future in the Orioles infield. 

 

Right and in my opinion it isn't very close. Joey's elite in every area as a SS outside of pure arm strength. He's not going dig a ball over the bag at third and throw out the runner while his momentum is carrying him into foul territory like Manny but who else in baseball can do that outside of Manny? Arenado is probably the only other guy right now that could make a play like that. 

Jorge has that type of pure talent but he's obviously (not) hitting his way out of the organization and from all that I have seen of Joey throughout his time in the organization, he is definitely more sure-handed than anyone else in the system right now. 

I think that it's silly that anyone disputes the observations of someone who has spent, what, 25+ years covering the organization. 

[Bemorewins]

4 hours ago, NCRaven said:

If a potential 2024 Henderson-Ortiz-Westburg infield proves to be a winner, could Holliday be Mullins successor in CF?

The Orioles just drafted a kid in the first round Bradfied Jr who by ALL accounts is projected to be an uber elite/gold glove caliber CF. He seems to be the guy that the org plans to slot into CF post Mullins.

[Bemorewins]

I wish Ortiz all of the best whether it’s here or somewhere else. But the issue with him being a stated here long term will NOT be solely based on his defensive ability IMO.

The talent on the roster and in the org is because too good for that kind of consideration. He is going to have to prove (if even given a chance) that his defensive value COMBINED with his offensive value is greater than that of Holliday and Henderson.

I think most people would acknowledge that he is a better defender than probably all of our infielders not named Mateo (and some believe that he is on par with Mateo). But if say either Henderson or Holliday are a notch below with the glove at SS but 2 notches above with the bat, the value probably leans in either of their direction.

I think a credible discussion about Ortiz and whether or not that he should be a starter should include how his ability with the bat compares with Henderson’s and Holliday’s. Because that will be a part of the evaluation criteria/decision that is made.

[owknows]

14 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I wish Ortiz all of the best whether it’s here or somewhere else. But the issue with him being a stated here long term will NOT be solely based on his defensive ability IMO.

The talent on the roster and in the org is because too good for that kind of consideration. He is going to have to prove (if even given a chance) that his defensive value COMBINED with his offensive value is greater than that of Holliday and Henderson.

I think most people would acknowledge that he is a better defender than probably all of our infielders not named Mateo (and some believe that he is on par with Mateo). But if say either Henderson or Holliday are a notch below with the glove at SS but 2 notches above with the bat, the value probably leans in either of their direction.

I think a credible discussion about Ortiz and whether or not that he should be a starter should include how his ability with the bat compares with Henderson’s and Holliday’s. Because that will be a part of the evaluation criteria/decision that is made.

Personally, of the four players under discussion here, I don't think we've seen enough of any of them besides maybe Henderson and arguably Westburg to know how they're going to perform at the MLB level.

Everyone discusses these things as if the players are sure things, because they've played well coming through the levels they seen in MiLB.

But if baseball has anything, its a history of high-performing AAA mashers that couldn't quite catch up with an MLB fastball... or kids that were "can't miss" until MLB scouts exposed their breaking ball troubles.

The point is that while there's a pretty good chance that one of Ortiz or Holliday will thrive in the show... there's a significantly lower chance that both will. And a non-zero chance that neither will. Despite all the prognostication downright certainty to the contrary.

Maybe its best to see what we have in either player before trading them away for a handful of magic beans.

 

 

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, owknows said:

Personally, of the four players under discussion here, I don't think we've seen enough of any of them besides maybe Henderson and arguably Westburg to know how they're going to perform at the MLB level.

Everyone discusses these things as if the players are sure things, because they've played well coming through the levels they seen in MiLB.

But if baseball has anything, its a history of high-performing AAA mashers that couldn't quite catch up with an MLB fastball... or kids that were "can't miss" until MLB scouts exposed their breaking ball troubles.

The point is that while there's a pretty good chance that one of Ortiz or Holliday will thrive in the show... there's a significantly lower chance that both will. And a non-zero chance that neither will. Despite all the prognostication downright certainty to the contrary.

Maybe its best to see what we have in either player before trading them away for a handful of magic beans.

 

 

For me personally, it’s unimportant that I ever “see enough of them” or “know for sure”, I am very confident that the professionals who are employed by the organizations to make such value judgments “know” or at least have a good idea. 

I’m comfortable and confident on whoever they choose given their recent track record. 

But whatever happens, I hope that they are trading for better than “magic beans”. But actually really good player(s) that help make the Baltimore Orioles better.

[owknows]

10 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

For me personally, it’s unimportant that I ever “see enough of them” or “know for sure”, I am very confident that the professionals who are employed by the organizations to make such value judgments “know” or at least have a good idea. 

But of course they don't. So we have the perceived generational talents that eek out a middling career (Weiters)... and the "he's not really better than what we have" guys that turn out to be pretty good (Yaz and Walker being recent examples).

Your confidence in the professionals doesn't really serve as a substitute for seeing them play at the MLB level. Particularly when they're players with whom a mistake could throw a serious wrench in your plans

Quote

I’m comfortable and confident on whoever they choose given their recent track record. 

But whatever happens, I hope that they are trading for better than “magic beans”. But actually really good player(s) that help make the Baltimore Orioles better.

While their recent track record in the draft is stellar... I think it's a little much to suggest that they trade away Ortiz because they have Holliday coming. As it's pretty clear that they don't know what they have yet at the MLB level in either player. And that while we all hope they are awesome.. sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

And I think this front office is clever enough to know that.

[geschinger]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I think most people would acknowledge that he is a better defender than probably all of our infielders not named Mateo (and some believe that he is on par with Mateo). But if say either Henderson or Holliday are a notch below with the glove at SS but 2 notches above with the bat, the value probably leans in either of their direction.

I think a credible discussion about Ortiz and whether or not that he should be a starter should include how his ability with the bat compares with Henderson’s and Holliday’s. Because that will be a part of the evaluation criteria/decision that is made.

It's Westburg he should be compared with.  Assuming there is no platooning, take the three best players and then determine what the best defensive alignment is for the regulars and if the other hasn't been traded he's the super sub and/or future trade-bait.

[Bemorewins]

14 minutes ago, geschinger said:

It's Westburg he should be compared with.  Assuming there is no platooning, take the three best players and then determine what the best defensive alignment is for the regulars and if the other hasn't been traded he's the super sub and/or future trade-bait.

Holliday nor Gunnar will be part of any platoon and it doesn’t appear thus far that Westburg needs one.