Penn traded to the Marlins for IF Robert Andino

[DrungoHazewood]

Do you think this simply based on his numbers from 2007 and 2008 in the minors?

I always viewed his 2007 numbers as useless. I thought last year he was trying to do different things under (what I assumed) were instructions from above. I was under the impression that he was trying to pitch more to contact, which is a phrase used a lot by Trembley now and last year. I thought that this was considered vital to management for him to succeed in the new plan: great defense - pitch to contact and let that defense work for you. Maybe I was completely wrong.

If he pitched to a nearly 5.00 ERA in a pitcher's paradise by doing frankly stupid things on the orders of management I think that's good evidence that he wasn't going to succeed in this organization.

[MikeAD]

Or Matt Riley. Or Rudy Seanez. Or whatever.

The point is that Hayden Penn got to the end of the point where the O's could hide him in the minors, and he pretty clearly wasn't a major league pitcher. That's about the point where you have to move on. You just can't give a major league roster spot to a guy who's pitched badly since 2006 and got torched in spring training. Maybe he'll eventually stay healthy for a while, but you don't let him be a mopup man with an 8.00 ERA for a year to find out.

But isn't it better to let him be a mop up guy at least for a few months, until younger guys are ready? Better than having someone like Baez or Eaton that is. Penn can still put it together and be what he was expected, with a real chance, we know what to expect from the others, and it aint to pretty.

My apologies if this is begining to be a "treareaction."

[Flosman]

I know everyone was on pins and needles waiting for my take, so here goes.

• Drew has a point - it is a bit hypocritical to keep Pie and not Penn. They both have the same sort of history.
• On the other hand, the O's are short on position prospects, and Penn has been passed by a new generation.
• If I'm a Marlins fan, I really like this trade.
• I think Andino is a good fit, and we'll have one of the better benches in the AL
• If I were GM, I would have kept Penn as the 7th man, went with a 4 man bench (maybe Cabrera until something better popped up), and cut Baez and Bass.
• Oh, and Flanagan really screwed us here - Penn should have never been brought up so early, and he should still have at least one option.

A point that really can not be overstated. Look back at last season's pitching collapse as a perfect example. Past FOs would have called up out of the Tillman, Hernandez bergesen group and the truth is they might just have been better than the drek we had to watch. However it might have hurt their development and reduced our options in the future. It is refreshing to see a FO that knows what they are doing.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I'm not sure what to make of this.

Pie has stunk throughout spring training but they gave him the starting LF job over a guy who was here last year and performed admirably. I know, I know, Andy's trying to prove something to the Chicago fans with Pie...I get it. But Pie's spring has been bad (and Scott's, good) and he's a fixture.

Penn hasn't been very good either. And his minor league numbers haven't been spectacular in recent years.

That said, they've invested 7 years in the guy and he's still young. You're going to keep Hendrickson and Baez and, probably, Eaton...and ship this kid out? And in return, we get a lifetime .201 major league hitter (with upside, I'm sure) and some sunflower seeds.

I don't understand it.

Then again, I'm not allowed to ask the team any real questions.

This is definitely one I'd like to speak with Andy MacPhail about...it sorta doesn't make any sense since - as everyone knows - "we're not going to win anyway..."

Alas, MacPhail won't field questions from the media unless you're paying the team a rights fee.

I guess we'll all just have to form our own opinion on it.

Gun to my head, I'd bet Penn doesn't make it in the major leagues. So, ultimately, this might not be much of a loss.

But giving him up for a scrub utility guy and keeping some has-been pitching re-treads around doesn't seem right. I still say it would have been better to give him 10 ML starts this spring to see what he can do. If he gets shelled, we know for sure.

If only we could talk to the powers that be...

Ugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again?!?!?!?! Really?!?!??!!

EDIT: Clearly others have already spoken up, apologies.

[amateurfan]

If he pitched to a nearly 5.00 ERA in a pitcher's paradise by doing frankly stupid things on the orders of management I think that's good evidence that he wasn't going to succeed in this organization.

I don't understand this completely. It's got a lot of assumption in it. What are the stupid things he did last year? Last year he seemed to never been healthy for a long enough time to be fully capable.

I think a lot of posters are focusing on ERA too much. In limited time in 2007 his k/bb was the same as it had always been, so too were his HR/9, BB/9 and K/9. The only thing that went up was his H/9.

Sorry to dwell on this. I clearly do not like this trade at all. I'd be very happy if I were the Marlins.

[Slappy]

In the big picture, it's not really a major trade, is it? Unless Penn morphs into the next Curt Schilling. There wasn't much else McPhail could do - Penn being out of options and not pitching his way onto the staff. I'm happy he was actually able to acquire something the team needed - a solid backup SS - for a player that the O's were going to lose anyway.

[tvz1997]

But isn't it better to let him be a mop up guy at least for a few months, until younger guys are ready? Better than having someone like Baez or Eaton that is. Penn can still put it together and be what he was expected, with a real chance, we know what to expect from the others, and it aint to pretty.

My apologies if this is begining to be a "treareaction."

How would sticking him in the mop-up role for a few months be giving him a real chance?

Don't mean to offend, but a lot of us on here have guys that mean more to us than who they are. They are symbols of hope for us -- maybe if they can make it to their fullest potential so can the team, so can I, whatever. It's not a bad thing at all. We're fans, we care, we were given this great place to talk about it -GREAT.

Whether it is Moore or Penn or whoever, we attach our hopes (and fears of dissappointment) to some guys more than others. Maybe that is what you're referring to as the "treareaction." It's the same thing that makes Os fans draft Os players above their value in fantasy baseball (or trade a Barry Bonds card for a Mickey Weston like I did as a kid - TWICE).

I'm not judging here. I have done the same thing and do the same thing now, probably with Patton more than anybody else. I've just got to keep reminding myself of that if I find myself asking Roch, Melewski, and Tony to update us so I can keep my ideal June rotation in my head.

Sometimes I need Frobby or SG or whoever to smack me upside the head when I post something ridiculous and I love that about this board.

Don't know if this leads anywhere. Please continue on with your days.

[MikeAD]

How would sticking him in the mop-up role for a few months be giving him a real chance?

Don't mean to offend, but a lot of us on here have guys that mean more to us than who they are. They are symbols of hope for us -- maybe if they can make it to their fullest potential so can the team, so can I, whatever. It's not a bad thing at all. We're fans, we care, we were given this great place to talk about it -GREAT.

Whether it is Moore or Penn or whoever, we attach our hopes (and fears of dissappointment) to some guys more than others. Maybe that is what you're referring to as the "treareaction." It's the same thing that makes Os fans draft Os players above their value in fantasy baseball (or trade a Barry Bonds card for a Mickey Weston like I did as a kid - TWICE).

I'm not judging here. I have done the same thing and do the same thing now, probably with Patton more than anybody else. I've just got to keep reminding myself of that if I find myself asking Roch, Melewski, and Tony to update us so I can keep my ideal June rotation in my head.

Sometimes I need Frobby or SG or whoever to smack me upside the head when I post something ridiculous and I love that about this board.

Don't know if this leads anywhere. Please continue on with your days.

What I meant is that he needs a real chance, and if that real chance led to him stinking up the joint, well then, its better than watching Eaton or Baez do the same. No real loss, just a place holder for the other young pitchers on their way up, and a place holder that doesn't have a limited ceiling.

With that said, hes gone now, so no use in me speculating on what could have been.

[bej6789]

It's never been about something tangible with Penn -- if that makes any sense at all. His AAA stint in '06 really showed me something, that this kid can pitch. However, he just always seemed to be snake bit. Face value, I would've rather kept Penn -- but I understand the logic behind the deal.

Given the depth of the system, sooner or later these types of decisions are going to force themselves on us sooner than we would like. It would be great if we could keep Penn and really truely see his development out, but it just didn't work out. He was called up too early, and he never seemed to click after it. Given the depth of our positional prospects, trading for a former 2nd round pick isn't the worst thing in the world. Andino's got a glove, and even though he's a bit old for AAA -- a .287 average ain't bad either. If Penn turns out to be a stud, so be it. When you are confronted with difficult situations, sometimes a wrong decision is better than no decision at all. Cutting ties allows both Penn and the Orioles to move on. In the end, I think both sides will be happy.

[amateurfan]

It's never been about something tangible with Penn -- if that makes any sense at all. His AAA stint in '06 really showed me something, that this kid can pitch. However, he just always seemed to be snake bit. Face value, I would've rather kept Penn -- but I understand the logic behind the deal.

Given the depth of the system, sooner or later these types of decisions are going to force themselves on us sooner than we would like. It would be great if we could keep Penn and really truely see his development out, but it just didn't work out. He was called up too early, and he never seemed to click after it. Given the depth of our positional prospects, trading for a former 2nd round pick isn't the worst thing in the world. Andino's got a glove, and even though he's a bit old for AAA -- a .287 average ain't bad either. If Penn turns out to be a stud, so be it. When you are confronted with difficult situations, sometimes a wrong decision is better than no decision at all. Cutting ties allows both Penn and the Orioles to move on. In the end, I think both sides will be happy.

For me, AM's remarks are most telling:

"When it became evident that he wasn't going to break with us, we're pretty much looking at exposing him to waivers, in which case you'd get $25,000. He wasn't going to clear. So we called clubs that we knew had an interest over the last couple of years and inquired about him. I happened to be sitting with Larry Beinfest when Hayden was pitching and he asked about him, so one of the calls we made was to Larry, asking if he had interest. He did.

"We're too thin in the middle infield, in terms of who can play defense there. We really weren't comfortable with backup shortstops. We know that Cesar, like any shortstop, is going to need a couple days off. Blake Davis broke a bone in his foot, and we have Ryan Freel targeted for different positions. That was an area of need for us." This is from Roch's blog earlier.

Lots of people were convinced he wouldn't clear waivers. This was used as justification of how bad a pitcher Penn was. Now, we know that's not the case. The Orioles clearly are one of the worst starting rotations and they just gave up on a guy that other teams wanted.

Maybe it's double speak, but AM feels that the middle infield is now a bigger priority than pitching for this team this year. Do his remarks suggest that Blake Davis would have made team? It seems so, which would be completely contrary to the idea of everyone competing at every level. Furthermore, I thought for sure Gomez or Cabrera could have handled back up SS for a team that doesn't appear likely to contend.

[JeffConine19]

Florida Marlins fan living in Baltimore here...

When I saw the announcement of the trade this afternoon I was ecstatic. I should preface this by saying that I think far less on Andino than most of our fanbase does, but I don't see him realistically being a long-term middle infield option. While still only 24, he has not displayed any ability to handle ML pitching in his 100 ABs. I would argue his minor league numbers are inflated as a result of his long tenure in the hitter-friendly PCL. His best sampling size would be his 2007 stint where he had 600 ABs and posted a 750 OPS but that did not translate into remotely anything resembling success for the big club in 2008, where he was used as a spot starter and pinch hitter.

I would say the main thing you have to look forward to would be his glove. He looks pretty good at times despite making 30+ errors in 2007.

I'm glad to see him go mostly because I saw little potential in Andino and regarding his presence here to be a complication. It's always comforting to see the FO end experiments you don't anticipate succeeding.

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe it's double speak, but AM feels that the middle infield is now a bigger priority than pitching for this team this year. Do his remarks suggest that Blake Davis would have made team? It seems so, which would be completely contrary to the idea of everyone competing at every level. Furthermore, I thought for sure Gomez or Cabrera could have handled back up SS for a team that doesn't appear likely to contend.

You really believe all of those things? My goodness...

[Frobby]

I always viewed his 2007 numbers as useless. I thought last year he was trying to do different things under (what I assumed) were instructions from above. I was under the impression that he was trying to pitch more to contact, which is a phrase used a lot by Trembley now and last year. I thought that this was considered vital to management for him to succeed in the new plan: great defense - pitch to contact and let that defense work for you. Maybe I was completely wrong.

Just where did you get that impression? Apparerently nobody bothered to tell Olson (9.7 K/9 at Norfolk), Liz (8.8 K/9 at Norfolk), Tillman (10.2 K/9 at Bowie), Hernandez (10.6 K/9 at Bowie), Erbe (9.0 K/9 at Frederick), Arrieta (9.6 K/9 at Frederick) and others that pitching to contact was essential.

Sorry, when a guy goes from close to 9 K/9 to under 6 K/9, that's not because he's being told to pitch to contact IMO.

[amateurfan]

You really believe all of those things? My goodness...

Well, you did use ERA as suitable justification for your point of view.

[sdeclue]

Not sure how I feel about this trade. I was willing to give Penn another year or so, and the guy we got back isn't really going to help us. He seems like he is in the same boat as Penn.

http://www.examiner.com/x-1089-Baltimore-Sports-Examiner~y2009m4d1-Penn-traded-to-Marlins