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Machado: Demotion an Option?

TonySoprano

By TonySoprano
in Orioles Talk

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webbrick2010 Hangout Veteran Council

webbrick2010

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I think when we see him out on the field we forge this is a kid who just had a major knee surgery and what that implies. He is certainly healthy enough to play but that does not mean he 100%. Physiologically it would nearly impossible for him to have the same strength, range of motion, flexibility and level of muscle fatigue that he had prior to he surgery this early on. He is a 21 y.o kid just starting out, not Adrian Peterson in his prime. It should be expected that he might have some struggles. My guess is by next season Manny will be right as rain. He will work through it.

Look I'm not a doctor but all of this Manny sucks because of his knee is garbage.

From my experience with ACL reconstruction surgery, after the 6-9 months of rehab your knee is/should be in fact stronger than pre-injury and stronger than youf un-involved knee.

In my first PT appointment after surgery they measured the strength, flexibility, etc of my un-involved knee (with a very fancy computerized machine). I was than told that I would not be cleared for full activity until my repaired knee was at 95% or better than my un-involved knee. On my last test I exceeded my un-involved knee by 5% and never looked back.

Manny's knee should be at least as good as it was and as good as his right knee. It's a bad excuse for his bad play this year.

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lovetoaster Veteran All-Star

lovetoaster

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Look I'm not a doctor but all of this Manny sucks because of his knee is garbage.

From my experience with ACL reconstruction surgery, after the 6-9 months of rehab your knee is/should be in fact stronger than pre-injury and stronger than youf un-involved knee.

In my first PT appointment after surgery they measured the strength, flexibility, etc of my un-involved knee (with a very fancy computerized machine). I was than told that I would not be cleared for full activity until my repaired knee was at 95% or better than my un-involved knee. On my last test I exceeded my un-involved knee by 5% and never looked back.

Manny's knee should be at least as good as it was and as good as his right knee. It's a bad excuse for his bad play this year.

I don't really have an opinion one way or another here, but there is also a significant mental aspect when coming off a major injury. While the knee may be structurally sound, it is natural for it to take a while before you really trust it, and it can mess with your mechanics. Everybody is different in that aspect, and if it is in the back of his mind, that does not make him weak or anything like that. It's natural.

I am not offering that up as an excuse, I am just saying that while the knee might be ready to go, it usually takes a little while before he is back at his best on the field.

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Babypowder Hangout Veteran Council

Babypowder

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I think we need to keep him in Baltimore for his defense alone. Drop him in the order to take some pressure off. Who else would fill in anyway if we sent him down? Flaherty? Manny's bat will be just as effective.

Machado's wRC+ is 65, Flaherty's is 72... :eek:

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webbrick2010 Hangout Veteran Council

webbrick2010

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I don't really have an opinion one way or another here, but there is also a significant mental aspect when coming off a major injury. While the knee may be structurally sound, it is natural for it to take a while before you really trust it, and it can mess with your mechanics. Everybody is different in that aspect, and if it is in the back of his mind, that does not make him weak or anything like that. It's natural.

I am not offering that up as an excuse, I am just saying that while the knee might be ready to go, it usually takes a little while before he is back at his best on the field.

I agree it does appear that Manny doesn't yet mentally trust the repaired knee. My first few months of basketball (that's how I tore my ACL) were very wierd, but in basketball you can't not go hard to the rim. In baseball Manny could be trying to protect it, however if his rehab was as successful as it should have been he needs to get over the mental hurdle.

Bottom line though is he hasn't been a very good hitter for nearly a full season of games.

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eddie83 Hangout Grand Counsel

eddie83

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My point about the injury has more to do with the fact he didn't have a normal spring training. I saw him test his knee out with the training staff on Opening Day. A month later he was playing in the majors. I know the spring is considered too long by many people but Manny didn't get a lot of at bats in a competitive environment. The Orioles were so desperate for his glove that brought him back pretty fast.

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calmunderfire Major Leaguer Rising Star

calmunderfire

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He's already shown signs of hitting. He just hasn't put it together for a whole season. And I'm not sure you're right about "most great players." I can list you a whole bunch of great players who weren't great at 22-23.

There were about 40 HOF position players who were in the majors by 23 but had compiled a total rWAR of < 4.0. Hack Wilson was 2-for-10 through age 23. Willie Stargell was sub-replacement through 23. Carlton Fisk, Ed Delehanty, Lou Brock, Tony Perez, and Luke Appling were worth less than half a win through 23. Barry Larkin had a sub-.700 OPS through age 23. Mike Schmidt hit .197 through age 23. Ozzie Smith had a .623 OPS through 23. Brooks didn't clear a .700 OPS until 22, and .800 until 25. Buck Ewing, who some will argue was the greatest player of the 19th century, had a .710 OPS with a .299 OBP through 23.

Then you get to players like Earl Combs and Big Sam Thompson who didn't debut until 25. Or Wade Boggs, Kirby Puckett, and Bill Terry, who debuted at 24.

It looks like about 1/3rd of HOF position players weren't even in the major leagues at Manny's age.

And this is narrowing down the definiton of "star" to "Hall of Famer", which really means the stars among the stars, the very best of the best. I'd guess that a list of people who've made the All Star team would have a median debut age between 23 and 24. I'd guess Manny would be showing signs of greatness if he was in AA like a large number of his age group peers. Funny how a 21-year-old hitting .325 with power in AA is seen as a coming star, but someone who's struggling with some adjustments and inconsistency at the MLB level at the same age is seen by some as a likely disappointment.

Since you were referring to the best players the game has seen. Take a look at the all time career WAR leaders. Many of them were posting star seasons by the time they were 22.

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bobmc Hangout Grand Counsel

bobmc

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Since you were referring to the best players the game has seen. Take a look at the all time career WAR leaders. Many of them were posting star seasons by the time they were 22.

Something tells me this is not over....but good followup!:drungo::drungo::drungo::drungo::drungo:

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MdSooner Hangout Grand Counsel

MdSooner

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I think we need to keep him in Baltimore for his defense alone. Drop him in the order to take some pressure off. Who else would fill in anyway if we sent him down? Flaherty? Manny's bat will be just as effective.

Exactly, we have no one else. And Manny's defense hasnt been all that bad. imho

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El Gordo Hangout Grand Counsel

El Gordo

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Since you were referring to the best players the game has seen. Take a look at the all time career WAR leaders. Many of them were posting star seasons by the time they were 22.
Define star season and then give us some examples.
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El Gordo Hangout Grand Counsel

El Gordo

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Star season is arbitrary. I don't know to objectively define that. Take a look at this list. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

Many of those guys were stars very, very early.

If "star season" is arbitrary" then I can say Nick is having a star season, Manny had one last year. I can say anything. What you are saying is meaningless.
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