Second guessing Hyde

[Sessh]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Fans always have a much shorter rope than the manager.  The fan managers would pull a guy out of a role after two or three bad games.  The manager realizes that on most teams that means you'd be shuffling guys in and out of key roles, and using inappropriate players in key roles, constantly.  And you'd also be killing clubhouse morale.  Players have to know that management has faith in them to work through inevitable slumps.  Yes, sometimes that means losing a game.  But it's also a big part of why a team stays united behind a manager.

Givens closing is an experiment. It's not like he has established himself as a viable closer to this point in his career nor has he, in my opinion, earned a whole lot of rope here. He has failed 50% of the time this year to get the job done, so he is getting horribly burned half the time he's going into that building. His body language and the emotion on his face at times did not scream "keep putting me in there coach!" You can't just keep putting people into situations where they're failing over and over again and expect them to figure it out especially in high pressure situations. Some guys respond well to that and some don't. Givens does not appear to be one of the ones that does. It's not just this season and it certainly does not appear that he has what it takes to be a closer.

Continuing to put someone into a situation that they are showing you is too much for them is not productive and can be, in fact, destructive. Not everyone reacts the same way to the same stimulus. Part of why a team stays behind a manager is also knowing his players and knowing that they can't all be given the same treatment because they respond differently to different things. Knowing when to push a player and when to back off a little as well as which ones work best on which players. You put guys in a situation where they are most likely to succeed, not fail. Givens has proven nothing as far as being a closer is concerned despite having been given numerous chances; 13-for-28 is not good. Even if you remove the 0-for-7 before last season, he's still 13-for-21. Making players earn their places as opposed to just handing it to them even if their performance doesn't merit them being there is a good way to keep your team behind you, too.

If Givens wants to be a closer, he's going to have to do better. He has been awful. How many more times should his confidence have to take the hit of losing the game for his team in the last inning? He's not ready yet and he may never be. We'll see. Let him get some positive outings under his belt and then try to ease him back into the ninth and see what happens.

[LookinUp]

44 minutes ago, Sessh said:

You can't just keep putting people into situations where they're failing over and over again and expect them to figure it out especially in high pressure situations.

I tend to agree with this criticism of Hyde, but I understand both sides of that issue.

On one hand, I want him to put Givens in manageable positions to succeed. Let him get an out or two, finish an inning or start a different one. At this point it would be nice if he was backed down to a middle relief match up guy just so he can have some success to build on.

On the other hand, if you don't put Givens in those situations, who was going to get the outs? That answer is anyone's guess. The truth is there's probably no answer. 

In hindsight, I think I would have liked Hyde to back off of the relievers a bit. Use them more often, but for fewer outs. Don't let things snowball. He would probably concede that point right now, but a couple of months ago I'm sure he was hoping he had a high-leverage reliever that could be really important for this team on the field and at the July deadline. Instead, it imploded. Now it's time to build the young man back up. 

[Il BuonO]

21 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

On one hand, I want him to put Givens in manageable positions to succeed. Let him get an out or two, finish an inning or start a different one. At this point it would be nice if he was backed down to a middle relief match up guy just so he can have some success to build on.

On the other hand, if you don't put Givens in those situations, who was going to get the outs? 

I’ve seen this here a few times now since that loss. The bullpen was well rested. There was no reason he had to extend Givens and I said so in the GT that day.

Yes, he was throwing well, but so what? The whole idea of building on success is to manage that success. Don’t put a guy who’s been struggling in a position where he can screw it up. 

The move was to take him out after the good inning he pitched. Then, he’d be talking in the presser about “how good Mychal Givens was tonight.” 

[Sessh]

4 hours ago, LookinUp said:

  On the other hand, if you don't put Givens in those situations, who was going to get the outs? That answer is anyone's guess. The truth is there's probably no answer.

Well, if we're going to have other guys in the bullpen, we might as well use them. We can't just use Givens all the time and expect him to go more than one inning. Our bullpen is terrible and indeed, who is going to get the outs? Givens isn't getting them either, but he has been a successful bullpen piece in the past and there's no reason to think he can't be that again just maybe not in the ninth. The other guys may amount to nothing, but I think he has to be careful with relying too much on Givens. One of those guys we have now may surprise us, so let's just use what we have and sort the wheat from the chaff as we go.

If we want to trade Givens or if the organization sees him as a part of the future, then we have got to put him in situations where he will excel. You can't go forcing something if it's just not right and it's possible that being a closer isn't in the cards for him. The most important thing for him now is having good outings and I would suggest one inning outings only for the time being.

[thezeroes]

Currently the Orioles have a 53% save percent.

Blier 1 for 1  (100%)

Givens 4 for 8 (50%)

Fry 1 for 2(50%)

Armstrong 1 for 2(50%)

Wright was 1 for 2(50%)

Castro is 1 for 3 (33%)

No other pitcher has a save but they do have HOLDS

Kline 3 Holds

Phillips 3 Holds

Yacabonis 3 holds

No other pitcher has been placed in a hold/save situation.

 

If not Givens then who???

 

[PaulFolk]

7 hours ago, Sessh said:

Givens has proven nothing as far as being a closer is concerned despite having been given numerous chances; 13-for-28 is not good. Even if you remove the 0-for-7 before last season, he's still 13-for-21. Making players earn their places as opposed to just handing it to them even if their performance doesn't merit them being there is a good way to keep your team behind you, too.

I think you're misinterpreting the stats. Givens is not 13-for-28 as a closer in his career. He's only been the closer since last Aug. 1. He went 8-for-9 in save opportunities last year, which is quite good. This year, he's 4-for-7 (which, yes, is terrible). So all told, he's 12-for-16 since becoming the ninth inning guy.

The other "blown saves" you mention from past years were not ninth inning closing situations. They happened earlier in games -- sometimes as early as the sixth inning. Those weren't true save opportunities, because Givens never would've been given a chance to finish the game and get the save.

[Moose Milligan]

Little Yaz!!!!!!!1111

[Il BuonO]

Is Villar nursing a hand/finger injury? I wondered why Hyde used him as a PR last night and not to PH for Martin.

[weams]

Just now, Il BuonO said:

Is Villar nursing a hand/finger injury? I wondered why Hyde used him as a PR last night and not to PH for Martin.

He was injured Wednesday night. 

[Dipper9]

Hyde put mustard on his turkey and cheese sandwich today, obviously a poor choice over mayo.  He will have to deal with the consequences of this decision.  

[Il BuonO]

38 minutes ago, Dipper9 said:

Hyde put mustard on his turkey and cheese sandwich today, obviously a poor choice over mayo.  He will have to deal with the consequences of this decision.  

Just as long as he doesn’t put ketchup on a hot dog we’re fine.

[Dipper9]

4 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Just as long as he doesn’t put ketchup on a hot dog we’re fine.

Did you see the hot dogs in Texas?  They were like 3 feet long.  

[foxfield]

Mustard AND Mayo on a turkey and cheese please...and Mustard on the dog, even if it's a three footer!

[weams]

4 minutes ago, Dipper9 said:

Did you see the hot dogs in Texas?  They were like 3 feet long.  

They are wonder. All the food in Texas is wonderful. 

[Redskins Rick]

5 minutes ago, Dipper9 said:

Did you see the hot dogs in Texas?  They were like 3 feet long.  

I want to visit that steakhouse in Texas and that 72 oz steak.

If I was 30 years younger, I would love to have given it a shot.