Maryland vs. Iowa

[Tony-OH]

9 hours ago, MurphDogg said:

For years that was the same complaint about Gary. He was known for not being able to get past the Sweet Sixteen until he wasn't.

This is an honest question since you taking the stance of defending Turgeon here, did you ever think Gary Williams was getting out coached during a game? Did you ever feel like if the game was close that the Terps didn't have the advantage with Williams? 

Also, you and I both know they came in under different circumstances. Williams came in when the team was under sanctions and dead in the water and built it into a perennial top 25 team and a team that the power houses certainly didn't want to face due to the fact that Gary's squads were always good for an upset or two back when the ACC was the powerhouse basketball conference! 

Williams never wanted to play the game with the AAU coaches and system so he wasn't able to get a ton of highly ranked guys but the guys he did bring in had heart and most of them played above their ranked status.

All I know, as it's been pointed out in this thread clearly, Turgeon has struggled to win against high level competition and has always padded his non conference schedule with patsies in order to have an artificial good record. I think Turgeon is a good man, but I don't think he's a very good motivator, he's not a good game planner, his offense is about as generic and vanilla as it gets, and he's definitely not a good in-game decision maker. 

I also think his recruiting is overrated as he's able to get talented but knucklehead guys that other top programs didn't want because of the intangibles. 

 

[MurphDogg]

18 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

This is an honest question since you taking the stance of defending Turgeon here, did you ever think Gary Williams was getting out coached during a game? Did you ever feel like if the game was close that the Terps didn't have the advantage with Williams? 

Also, you and I both know they came in under different circumstances. Williams came in when the team was under sanctions and dead in the water and built it into a perennial top 25 team and a team that the power houses certainly didn't want to face due to the fact that Gary's squads were always good for an upset or two back when the ACC was the powerhouse basketball conference! 

Williams never wanted to play the game with the AAU coaches and system so he wasn't able to get a ton of highly ranked guys but the guys he did bring in had heart and most of them played above their ranked status.

All I know, as it's been pointed out in this thread clearly, Turgeon has struggled to win against high level competition and has always padded his non conference schedule with patsies in order to have an artificial good record. I think Turgeon is a good man, but I don't think he's a very good motivator, he's not a good game planner, his offense is about as generic and vanilla as it gets, and he's definitely not a good in-game decision maker. 

I also think his recruiting is overrated as he's able to get talented but knucklehead guys that other top programs didn't want because of the intangibles. 

 

I don't think Turgeon is a great coach. But I remember Gary's reputation before making the Final Four, that he could never get past the Sweet Sixteen. That '99 team was the second best team he ever had, and they got run off the floor by St. John's in the third round, down 19 at the half.

As far as Turgeon's overall record, finishing in the top 3 in his first three years in the Big Ten was really impressive, I was down on him in his first couple years and his last couple years haven't been great, but I am not ready to bury him.

The reason I jumped into the thread with a new poster was called a troll for having a different opinion. I think Gary was a better coach than Turgeon is, but I remember his pre-Final Four reputation being quite shaky.

The Big Ten is a very, very, good conference, especially this year. It is significantly better than the ACC was in Gary's successful years, with UVA, Clemson and Florida State almost always lousy (and got worse once Miami, Virginia Tech and BC joined). In 2002, the year Maryland won the Championship, KenPom had 4 of 9 ACC teams in his top 30 and 6 in his top 70, the other three were ranked 121 to 137. Right now, he has 12 of 14 Big Ten teams in his top 36.

The ACC was rarely as good, top-to-bottom as the Big Ten is regularly and was never as good when Gary was there as it is now.

[Tony-OH]

17 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

I don't think Turgeon is a great coach. But I remember Gary's reputation before making the Final Four, that he could never get past the Sweet Sixteen. That '99 team was the second best team he ever had, and they got run off the floor by St. John's in the third round, down 19 at the half.

As far as Turgeon's overall record, finishing in the top 3 in his first three years in the Big Ten was really impressive, I was down on him in his first couple years and his last couple years haven't been great, but I am not ready to bury him.

The reason I jumped into the thread with a new poster was called a troll for having a different opinion. I think Gary was a better coach than Turgeon is, but I remember his pre-Final Four reputation being quite shaky.

The Big Ten is a very, very, good conference, especially this year. It is significantly better than the ACC was in Gary's successful years, with UVA, Clemson and Florida State almost always lousy (and got worse once Miami, Virginia Tech and BC joined). In 2002, the year Maryland won the Championship, KenPom had 4 of 9 ACC teams in his top 30 and 6 in his top 70, the other three were ranked 121 to 137. Right now, he has 12 of 14 Big Ten teams in his top 36.

The ACC was rarely as good, top-to-bottom as the Big Ten is regularly and was never as good when Gary was there as it is now.

I do think the talent is spreading out more across the NCAA has players want to play right away. I also agree with you that the Big-10 is a very talented conference overall and when you add in the travel, it's even tougher. 

Saying that, I just haven't seen any plus thing from Turgeon and don't think the team will ever by great with him as coach. I hope I'm wrong.

[Beef Supreme]

On 1/14/2020 at 8:02 AM, MurphDogg said:

For years that was the same complaint about Gary. He was known for not being able to get past the Sweet Sixteen until he wasn't.

To me, this is a wildly unfair comparison. Williams resurrected a phoenix from the ashes of one of the most disgraced basketball programs in NCAA history. It could be said that most of his early teams overachieved - despite NCAA sanctions as well as self-imposed sanctions by UMD itself - with his frenetic style of breaking and pressing (as well as his re-popularization of the flex). 

Not only did Turgeon assume the reins in a much more favorable situation, I can only think of all those teams that disappointed expectations rather than ever exceeding them. Is there a team regarded as having overachieved during his tenure?

 

[Hallas]

47 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

To me, this is a wildly unfair comparison. Williams resurrected a phoenix from the ashes of one of the most disgraced basketball programs in NCAA history. It could be said that most of his early teams overachieved - despite NCAA sanctions as well as self-imposed sanctions by UMD itself - with his frenetic style of breaking and pressing (as well as his re-popularization of the flex). 

Not only did Turgeon assume the reins in a much more favorable situation, I can only think of all those teams that disappointed expectations rather than ever exceeding them. Is there a team regarded as having overachieved during his tenure?

 

I've said this before but I dont think Turgeon inherited a significantly better situation than Gary, and certainly Turgeon has had to deal with a lot of fallout from administration ineptness and ancillary fallout from the football program having its head stuck inside its rear end.  Gary tended to beat expectations, but his expectations were generally lower because of the caliber players he recruited.

[Satyr3206]

On 1/14/2020 at 10:05 PM, Mark Turgeon’s Suit said:

Thank you. You explained it better than I could and as expected, Satyr had no response to this.

Actually I do. Not sure how old you are but Gary inherited a disaster. Bob Wade should have never been hired.

Gary tended to recruit overlooked guys. The year he got Dixon he wasn't even there to see him. He went to Calvert Hall to look at a different player. Lonny Baxter was a project.

You only post in this one thread and you always call me out. It's starting to piss me off.

 

[Satyr3206]

24 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I've said this before but I dont think Turgeon inherited a significantly better situation than Gary, and certainly Turgeon has had to deal with a lot of fallout from administration ineptness and ancillary fallout from the football program having its head stuck inside its rear end.  Gary tended to beat expectations, but his expectations were generally lower because of the caliber players he recruited.

Please go read about the Bob Wade years.

[Satyr3206]

35 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I've said this before but I dont think Turgeon inherited a significantly better situation than Gary, and certainly Turgeon has had to deal with a lot of fallout from administration ineptness and ancillary fallout from the football program having its head stuck inside its rear end.  Gary tended to beat expectations, but his expectations were generally lower because of the caliber players he recruited.

I guess that's how he won a National Championship. Expectations were lower. What a stupid statement.

[Hallas]

2 hours ago, Satyr3206 said:

Please go read about the Bob Wade years.

No need, Mr. Condescending.

[Satyr3206]

3 hours ago, vatech1994 said:

The funniest thing to me about this whole Turgeon vs Williams discussion is that Williams is a Hall of Fame coach.  Saying Turgeon isn’t as good as Williams isn’t nearly the damning statement some of us think it is.  Williams is literally the best coach in MD history (probably across any sport) yet Turgeon is being crushed for not being as good as him.  Who expected him (or any other hire for that matter) to be that good?  I spent three years saying as much when Gary was quietly and then not so quietly being pushed out the door.  Williams is literally one of the best in game coaches I’ve ever seen.  Period. For God’s sake, the FREAKING basketball court that Turgeon has to coach on at home is named Gary Williams’ Court.  By definition, once in a generation type coaches don’t come along very often.

This reminds me of the crap that Fuente is going through at VT because he replaced Beamer.  Fuente is doing fine but he just gets ripped constantly because Beamer is a legend (and a deserved one just like Williams).

Following a legend just pretty much sucks for the next guy it seems.  The legends in both cases were right on the edge of being run out of town when they retired because recruiting had passed them by and the program had slid down a couple pegs, but 4 and 8 years later everybody just wants to rip apart the new guy for not being as good as the best coach in the school’s history during his absolute best period.  It makes no sense to me and shows a lack of understanding about how the world actually works IMHO.

I totally see your point. I just think Maryland could do better in their hiring. Loh doesn't have a clue. It's also shocking that Turgeon hasn't ever won a game against a big 5 conference team in the Tourney, in his entire career. Maybe one of the stats guys could look that up and see if there are any comps.