“Orioles big game shopping & most believe it's exclusively rotation”

[Roll Tide]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I’m estimating 210+ million per team based on these two articles

 

 

So unless I’m reading it wrong $110million in revenue sharing and 100 in the tv contract money that’s split. Then there is the other 52% of the income not counted in revenue sharing. Hard to know that number but based on the Forbes article somewhere around 40 million? $250 total?
 

Also, @Frobby this article has us 26 out of 30

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/961412-mlb-power-rankings-all-30-mlb-teams-by-market-size

Edited November 28, 2022 by Roll Tide

[emmett16]

9 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I’m not thrilled to pay $30-$40 million for any pitcher that’s likely to only give you half a season for that money.

They need to take the playoffs into consideration with the moves they make as well.  The goal isn’t just getting to the playoffs, it’s winning.  Its a huge risk but the reward is a WS.  They built roster flexibility specifically for a move just like that.  

[Jim'sKid26]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I agree we don’t really know what budget Elias has been given.  However, I disagree with several things you said.

1.  I don’t think the Angelos family squabble has much impact at all on the Orioles’ finances.  The Orioles aren’t a party to the case, and the relief sought in the case doesn’t impact the team’s finances.   

2.  I would not say the O’s are a mid-market team demographically, depending on where you want to draw the line.  They’re not Oakland, Tampa or Pittsburgh, but they’re somewhere in the bottom ten out of 30.   There’s a reason they’re given a competitive balance pick every year.  

3.  They have not always operated like a small market team.  They certainly weren’t doing that in 2013 (13th largest payroll), 2014 (13th), 2015 (15th), 2016 (10th), 2017 (11th) or 2018 (14th).  
 

1. I disagree with you here. But we have differing opinions with no way to know the true answer. 

2. Why do you say bottom 10? What is your unit of measure? If we use the data from the US Census Bureau, the Washington DC area is #6 (6.2 M people) and the Baltimore area is #21 (2.8 M people). Given that MASN covers both the Nats and the O's about 9 M people seems to be right around the middle. 

3. This is a fair criticism. Perhaps there is more hope than I perceive.

[MarCakes21]

4 hours ago, Camden Yards said:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/11/white-sox-in-agreement-with-mike-clevinger.html

Hmm a probe it deal. I think he will be worth more and would have offered him that. At least more upside than Lyles

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

 

2. Why do you say bottom 10? What is your unit of measure? 

MLB has a measure of market size called the Revenue Sharing Market Score, that they use to determine the ten smallest markets eligible for extra draft picks.  The O’s rank 21st on that list.  If it’s good enough for the MLB owners to use as the relevant measure, it’s good enough for me.

If you want to see the list it’s at page 239 of the 2017-21 CBA.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

1 hour ago, MarCakes21 said:

a probe it deal

[OriolesMagic83]

8 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

I’m estimating 210+ million per team based on these two articles

 

 

Am I right on reading this as the O's revenue is $210 million before they sell a single ticket?

[Roll Tide]

22 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Am I right on reading this as the O's revenue is $210 million before they sell a single ticket?

According to the one article each team gets a minimum of $100 million from TV. They then contribute 48 percent of their other monies into a pot to be split equally among the 30 teams. That was the 110 million.Then they still have the other 52 percent that the amount isn’t clear but perhaps that’s the 83 million in operating income? I could be reading it wrong … @Frobby what’s your take?

So 52% is somewhere around 42 million.

So 100 + 110 + 42= $252

Edited November 28, 2022 by Roll Tide

[Jim'sKid26]

9 hours ago, Frobby said:

MLB has a measure of market size called the Revenue Sharing Market Score, that they use to determine the ten smallest markets eligible for extra draft picks.  The O’s rank 21st on that list.  If it’s good enough for the MLB owners to use as the relevant measure, it’s good enough for me.

If you want to see the list it’s at page 239 of the 2017-21 CBA.

Thank you. You have expanded my knowledge and I appreciate it. This helps frame quite a few things. 

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Am I right on reading this as the O's revenue is $210 million before they sell a single ticket?

Per Forbes, the O’s revenue in 2021 was $251 mm, but gate receipts were only $20 mm.   Remember that the O’s are both kicking money into the revenue sharing pool, and receiving money back. So, in addition to gate receipts, you have local TV and radio, concessions, certain merchandise sales, etc.   I’ve seen reports that the O’s receive about $35 mm more from the revenue sharing pool than they put in.  If you want to read a super-detailed explanation of how MLB revenue sharing works, you can read it here.

[Going Underground]

30 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Per Forbes, the O’s revenue in 2021 was $251 mm, but gate receipts were only $20 mm.   Remember that the O’s are both kicking money into the revenue sharing pool, and receiving money back. So, in addition to gate receipts, you have local TV and radio, concessions, certain merchandise sales, etc.   I’ve seen reports that the O’s receive about $35 mm more from the revenue sharing pool than they put in.  If you want to read a super-detailed explanation of how MLB revenue sharing works, you can read it here.

I think we have had this discussion before , but MASN gives the  Nationals and Orioles a percentage of the MASN profits to each team. That is one of the reasons the Nationals want a bigger percentage  MASN is a separate entity from the Orioles at least in theory. Does Forbes take into account the total net profit of MASN when it does the revenue of the Orioles?  MASN is basically owned by the Angelos family 

[Roll Tide]

54 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Per Forbes, the O’s revenue in 2021 was $251 mm, but gate receipts were only $20 mm.   Remember that the O’s are both kicking money into the revenue sharing pool, and receiving money back. So, in addition to gate receipts, you have local TV and radio, concessions, certain merchandise sales, etc.   I’ve seen reports that the O’s receive about $35 mm more from the revenue sharing pool than they put in.  If you want to read a super-detailed explanation of how MLB revenue sharing works, you can read it here.

Yes … as I said above where I asked your opinion.

This year they received 100 million in tv revenue. In addition, 110 million in revenue sharing that cost them 48% of their revenue. I assume this is not counting the 100 million since every team gets it. Then they have the 52% of their remaining local money. One would assume it includes gates, concessions, marketing money, concessions, and anything that should/is kicked back from MASN.

So it’s safe to assume the uptick in play and attendance should be more than the 251 million from last year. I’m guessing $275 all in? 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Going Underground said:

I think we have had this discussion before , but MASN gives the  Nationals and Orioles a percentage of the MASN profits to each team. That is one of the reasons the Nationals want a bigger percentage  MASN is a separate entity from the Orioles at least in theory. Does Forbes take into account the total net profit of MASN when it does the revenue of the Orioles?  MASN is basically owned by the Angelos family 

The way in which Forbes treats the MASN revenue streams is a bit murky because of the arbitration/litigation.  As I understand it, Forbes counts local TV rights fees in its revenue streams, but not profits from team-owned RSNs.   However, because of the litigation, it’s unclear what Forbes is using for the rights fees numbers.   Is it the amount MASN actually has paid the Orioles, or the amount that MASN will have to pay if the arbitrators’ ruling stands up in court?     The difference between those two numbers is about $25-30 mm/yr, and I don’t know which one Forbes uses.

Just to elaborate a bit more, the Orioles own a majority interest in MASN, that shrinks by 1% a year until the percentage lands at 67% for the O’s and 33% for the Nats.   Right now it’s about 75%, if memory serves.   The agreement between the O’s, MASN and the Nats stipulates that each team receives equal rights fees.   So, the O’s receive 50% of the rights fees that are paid, but about 75% (right now) of the profits that are left over once rights fees have been paid.   Since the O’s get a higher percentage of profits than rights fees, it’s in their interests for MASN to pay smaller rights fees, which leaves more money as profits.  That’s what the arbitration/litigation has been all about.  The ruling of the arbitrators has been affirmed by a trial court and a first-level appellate court, and the parties are now awaiting a ruling from New York’s highest court, the New York Court of Appeals.   

[Frobby]

26 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

So it’s safe to assume the uptick in play and attendance should be more than the 251 million from last year. I’m guessing $275 all in? 

Attendance was up 72%, so I think you can assume an increase of about $15 mm from the team’s improved play.   The other big item is that two of the new national TV contracts began in 2022, so the national shared revenue will be higher in 2022 than in 2021.   I think some of the articles about TV revenue that were linked above already accounted for the 2022 increases, but the Forbes numbers for 2021 would not. So I’d assume overall revenue for the O’s in 2022 will be at least $275 mm, and probably a bit higher than that.  

[Yardball85]