“Liftoff - Perhaps a Bit Misunderstood “

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Going Underground said:

Also Astros have spent money. 

They were dead last in payroll in 2016.

2017-18th

2018-11th

2019- 8th

2020-4th

2021- 7th

2022- 11th

 

Yea they have spent money..mostly On their own and basically never in a major FA deal.

All FA deals have been 3 years or less with the exception of Reddick, who got 4/52.

[deward]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea they have spent money..mostly On their own and basically never in a major FA deal.

All FA deals have been 3 years or less with the exception of Reddick, who got 4/52.

They took on some significant salaries via trades (McCann, Verlander, Cole)

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, deward said:

They took on some significant salaries via trades (McCann, Verlander, Cole)

Yep. Again, short term deals. That’s the best recipe imo.

[BRobinsonfan]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Every team had to deal with Covid!

I so very much hate that excuse.

It's nonsense.

With the number of teams that make the playoffs I don't think it would at all be out of question to expect the 2023 team to be a playoff contender back in 2019.

I also don't think the general consensus is that the Orioles are "expected" to make the playoffs. 

Which 2022 playoff team do you see the Orioles, as currently constructed, being better than?

Yes, every team did have to deal with COVID... but that's kind of the point.  If you're in rebuilding mode, there's not much you can do if you're not developing players and if you're not developing players by playing games you're stuck where you were.  It's a lost year in the process, or at least a year that wasn't as productive in terms of rebuilding.  

[oriole]

Anything other than a full fledged effort is wasting the years with Rutschman, Rodriguez, and Henderson. No half ass “innings eaters” or “crusty veteran” signings as the main addition will make me believe otherwise. 
 

 Not saying I can’t be positive when we go into 23 with Gibson on opening day. I’m trying to be optimistic no matter what but it’s disingenuous to allude to any real attempt to win the division with players added whose ceiling is like 2 WAR. Gotta get a couple proven stars in here and it’s ridiculous we’re now being told to limit expectations. This team could be real good but I’m afraid we’ll be leaning hard on bounce backs from guys Mountcastle and Hays instead of actually investing in the payroll. Rutschman can’t win the division on his own. 
 

Liftoff was a dumb thing to say. 

[DrinkinWithFermi]

I did not think "liftoff" meant a wild spending spree, but rather a measured but meaningful increase in payroll to augment a young team on the rise and make competing for a playoff spot next year a real possibility.

I did not expect any $40 million a year contracts or any 8-10 year deals for elite free agents like a lot of others, but I did think the idea of playing in the middle tier of free agency was realistic and reasonable- 2-4 year deals in the $15-20 million a year range at a couple of key weak spots on the roster, like the rotation and DH.

The Gibson signing coming so early in the offseason, when upwards of a dozen superior alternatives that would not an arm and a leg remained available in trade and free agency, made it fairly clear to me that this was a Pollyanna pipe dream and 2023 is another punt year.

If we compete for a playoff spot, it will again be by pure happenstance, not focused intent.

 

[Can_of_corn]

18 minutes ago, BRobinsonfan said:

Yes, every team did have to deal with COVID... but that's kind of the point.  If you're in rebuilding mode, there's not much you can do if you're not developing players and if you're not developing players by playing games you're stuck where you were.  It's a lost year in the process, or at least a year that wasn't as productive in terms of rebuilding.  

It isn't a point, it's an excuse and not a good one.

Wasn't Elias at the forefront of eliminating minor league teams and trying to move development of recently drafted players to camps instead of short season ball?

Isn't that the situation teams found themselves in?

If anything Covid should have helped the O's compared to other teams.  Look at Gunnar for instance, who despite being very young was at the O's developmental camp and impressed there.

Shouldn't they have been better equipped to deal with this than a more conventionally built farm system?  Seems to me tailored instruction and remote learning should have been in their wheelhouse.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Can_of_corn

[Bemorewins]

33 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I’d say the Angelos’ family is currently interested in selling….unfortunately 

I believe (if money is what matters most to them) that they should. Let them sell to someone who wants to win as well as make profits. The two need not be mutually exclusively.

[Bemorewins]

12 minutes ago, oriole said:

Anything other than a full fledged effort is wasting the years with Rutschman, Rodriguez, and Henderson. No half ass “innings eaters” or “crusty veteran” signings as the main addition will make me believe otherwise. 
 

 Not saying I can’t be positive when we go into 23 with Gibson on opening day. I’m trying to be optimistic no matter what but it’s disingenuous to allude to any real attempt to win the division with players added whose ceiling is like 2 WAR. Gotta get a couple proven stars in here and it’s ridiculous we’re now being told to limit expectations. This team could be real good but I’m afraid we’ll be leaning hard on bounce backs from guys Mountcastle and Hays instead of actually investing in the payroll. Rutschman can’t win the division on his own. 
 

Liftoff was a dumb thing to say. 

Pretty much agree with all of this! Especially the first part. Why waste the guys we have years on just trying to be barely good enough?

Again, I ask if "competing for a playoff spot" is the goal for next year. How are we planning to do that? Every other team that went to the playoffs is better than us. Hou, Sea, NY, Tor, Tampa, and whoever comes out of the central.

The O's should be looking at last year objectively saying to themselves "we overperformed and count on lighting in a bottle two years in a row". Right now, we have just a good of a chance for regression as progression. Even if Rutschman, Henderson, and Rodriguez do well, we had a bunch of starters and relievers perform better than they ever have. Is it reasonable and rational to count on that happening again?

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I also don't think the general consensus is that the Orioles are "expected" to make the playoffs. 

Which 2022 playoff team do you see the Orioles, as currently constructed, being better than?

I agree with this.  At present, the team isn’t appreciably better than the 2022 team that won 83 games and was outscored by 14 runs.   They might get some improvement from young players, and Gibson may be a small upgrade from Lyles, but they still need to supplement the existing team in order to improve their playoff chances.  And I think Elias knows this. 

[tabletop]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I agree with this.  At present, the team isn’t appreciably better than the 2022 team that won 83 games and was outscored by 14 runs.   They might get some improvement from young players, and Gibson may be a small upgrade from Lyles, but they still need to supplement the existing team in order to improve their playoff chances.  And I think Elias knows this. 

Appreciably? Maybe not, but having a full year (assuming health) of Gunnar Henderson will improve the team. Gibson like you said is a small upgrade on Lyles. Even without adding anyone else they're probably a .500ish team that depending on a few bounces here and there can win 75 games or win 85 games.

They remind me of the 2021 Mariners. That team won 90 games somehow and if I remember correctly most people thought it was lucky. Then they went out and added Ray, Winker, and Suarez as well as one of the top prospects in baseball, did it again, and now everyone takes them seriously. Unfortunately, I don't see the O's adding like that.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, tabletop said:

Appreciably? Maybe not, but having a full year (assuming health) of Gunnar Henderson will improve the team. Gibson like you said is a small upgrade on Lyles. Even without adding anyone else they're probably a .500ish team that depending on a few bounces here and there can win 75 games or win 85 games.

They remind me of the 2021 Mariners. That team won 90 games somehow and if I remember correctly most people thought it was lucky. Then they went out and added Ray, Winker, and Suarez as well as one of the top prospects in baseball, did it again, and now everyone takes them seriously. Unfortunately, I don't see the O's adding like that.

We get a full year of Gunnar and Adley.  And Grayson Rodriguez is a huge X factor.  Those are all to the good.  You could even say Stowers and Vavra could contribute more now that they have some major league experience.   Hall too.  There are a lot of guys who figure to be on the “up” slope of their careers.  But history shows that progress is not always linear.  

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, tabletop said:

Appreciably? Maybe not, but having a full year (assuming health) of Gunnar Henderson will improve the team. Gibson like you said is a small upgrade on Lyles. Even without adding anyone else they're probably a .500ish team that depending on a few bounces here and there can win 75 games or win 85 games.

They remind me of the 2021 Mariners. That team won 90 games somehow and if I remember correctly most people thought it was lucky. Then they went out and added Ray, Winker, and Suarez as well as one of the top prospects in baseball, did it again, and now everyone takes them seriously. Unfortunately, I don't see the O's adding like that.

Then we are bound for a ceiling of "being competitive". We as fans deserve better than that.

I'm going to hold out hope throughout the entire offseason though. Once pitchers and catchers report that be mine time to make a full evaluation. If they aren't that into doing what it takes to win at the highest level, then why should we as fans accept that? I know I won't.

[DocJJ]

I think the biggest addition to our team will be Grayson Rodriguez.  I don't wish to jinx him but he has the goods to be the best Home Grown TOR pitcher we've had since Mussina.   

 

Just putting him in the rotation should be good for at least 3-4 more wins if he stays healthy, possibly more than that.   If Gibson pitches better than Lyles, that could be an additional 1-2 wins.  We could sure use Means to be healthy.   These things could inch us toward the 90 win mark...

 

We could still use 1 big masher bat and 1 good starting pitcher.  I hope we go all in on the Asian International guys...

[Roll Tide]

41 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I believe (if money is what matters most to them) that they should. Let them sell to someone who wants to win as well as make profits. The two need not be mutually exclusively.

I’m hoping Mark Cuban is interested. I’d also be ok with Cal Ripken, Lucchino, and Bernstein . But, Cuban has ridiculous resources and would want to show his guns!