Gunnar Henderson 2023

[Sports Guy]

19 minutes ago, Malike said:

If we're going off scout grades, Holliday grades out a 70 overall. That usually doesn't suggest a ploddingly slow baserunner or iron glove defender. We'll see. To suggest Holliday isn't athletic or fast is seriously pretty funny, though.

It’s all funny. 
 

Im sure there are flaws. He’s 19 and far from polished. Luckily, his career isn’t over and he’s not done developing, so I think we should let things play out.

[baltfan]

Gunnar’s OAA went down after the game yesterday.  Does anyone know how you can find out what play was graded negatively?

[banks703]

4 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Gunnar’s OAA went down after the game yesterday.  Does anyone know how you can find out what play was graded negatively?

Perhaps Carroll’s ball in the hole but this is why I don’t love UZR or OAA as a defensive stat. In truth I don’t really like any of them but in my opinion DRS is the least subjective but that’s just me.

I can’t think why the OAA would have gone down after last night though. 

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

Perhaps Carroll’s ball in the hole but this is why I don’t love UZR or OAA as a defensive stat. In truth I don’t really like any of them but in my opinion DRS is the least subjective but that’s just me.

I can’t think why the OAA would have gone down after last night though. 

I figured it was that one too but wanted to see for sure. Ball had a tough spin and not sure he gets him even if he does play it clean. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Malike said:

But, but, the scouting community has rated Holliday a 55 fielder vs. a 50 for Gunnar. This is some metaverse-type crap, I guess, where lower is better? Or, maybe the scouts are only infallible when it proves someone's point?

What “community” are we talking about?  I’m sure not every scout has the same opinion.   Obviously, Longenhagen is of the opinion that Holiday is not ready to be a major league SS.   He made clear that he believes Holliday can get there with more work.   Who knows what other scouts think.  

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, baltfan said:

I figured it was that one too but wanted to see for sure. Ball had a tough spin and not sure he gets him even if he does play it clean. 

I watched the replay twice. I think there’s virtually 0 chance that he gets Carroll on that play even if he fields it cleanly. Carroll disappears from view just before Gunnar boots it. It looked like he would have been a step or two from the bag when the ball would have left Gunnar’s hand. 

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What “community” are we talking about?  I’m sure not every scout has the same opinion.   Obviously, Longenhagen is of the opinion that Holiday is not ready to be a major league SS.   He made clear that he believes Holliday can get there with more work.   Who knows what other scouts think.  

I assume they’re reading the mlb.com scouting profiles.

 

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I assume they’re reading the mlb.com scouting profiles.

 

Maybe.  Going into this season, Longenhagen had Gunnar with a 55/60 fielding grade and a 70 arm, and Holliday with a 40/50 fielding grade and a 55 arm.   https://blogs.fangraphs.com/baltimore-orioles-top-38-prospects-2023/

The year before, Gunnar had received a 45/60 fielding grade and his arm was rated at 60.   So that goes to show, these things can change.  https://blogs.fangraphs.com/baltimore-orioles-top-45-prospects/

[banks703]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Maybe.  Going into this season, Longenhagen had Gunnar with a 55/60 fielding grade and a 70 arm, and Holliday with a 40/50 fielding grade and a 55 arm.   https://blogs.fangraphs.com/baltimore-orioles-top-38-prospects-2023/

The year before, Gunnar had received a 45/60 fielding grade and his arm was rated at 60.   So that goes to show, these things can change.  https://blogs.fangraphs.com/baltimore-orioles-top-45-prospects/

The truth is that if I’m wrong (and I very could be) and Holliday makes the jump to become a better defender at SS, forcing the O’s to move Gunnar to third, the O’s are no worse than if Holliday ultimately ends up at 2B as I suggest. They may actually be better if Holliday leapfrogs Gunnar. That would mean that they have a world-class, platinum glove defender at SS. 

I’m going off of what I see from both of them at the same age and what I see from them now at a 2.5 year difference between them. I only posted the article because it was someone else’s objective observation of Holliday, which was very consistent with what I’ve seen with my own two eyes.

I say Holliday is destined for 2B less because I don’t think he can play there. Sure, they can stick him there just like the Yankees stuck Jeter at SS. He just isn’t going to be the best defensive option and I do not believe that the O’s are going to weaken their defense up the middle simply because some of our posters believe in their heart of hearts that Holliday is a SS because that’s what position it shows on his prospect page.

BTW the same prospect page now lists Holliday’s position as SS/2B but hey, let’s leave that out of our citation because it doesn’t support our idea.

At the end of the day I don’t care who plays where so long as they field the best 9. 

Let the controversy continue! 
 

One note on Gunnar’s arm score - it wasn’t because of arm strength. It was because he was prone to errant throws. 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by banks703

[Frobby]

Let’s just do a little mental exercise.  Assume the following;

Holliday is an .875 OPS hitter, a 55 2B and a 50 SS.

Gunnar is an .825 OPS hitter, a 55 SS and a 60 3B

Ortiz is a .750 hitter, a 60 SS and a 65 2B.

Westburg is a .775 hitter, a 50 2B and 3B, and a 45 SS.   

Now that may not be exactly accurate, but it’s a decent approximation of what I expect.  Which three are your starters, and how do you align them?
 

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Let’s just do a little mental exercise.  Assume the following;

Holliday is an .875 OPS hitter, a 55 2B and a 50 SS.

Gunnar is an .825 OPS hitter, a 55 SS and a 60 3B

Ortiz is a .750 hitter, a 60 SS and a 65 2B.

Westburg is a .775 hitter, a 50 2B and 3B, and a 45 SS.   

Now that may not be exactly accurate, but it’s a decent approximation of what I expect.  Which three are your starters, and how do you align them?
 

Joey at SS

Gunnar at 3B

Holliday at 2B

JW UTL with the ability to fill in each position and play outfield. I see him as a potential Zorbist guy if he remains in the org. I actually have thought for a long time that he gets moved for pitching.

Mayo is destined for 1B. He is not as good defensively at 3B as any of the above guys are at any of the IF positions.

I think Holliday’s offense profile is Bo Bichette+. I think he’s going to hit for a higher average and get on base more. He is THAT good as a hitter. He’s truly the best hitting prospect that I’ve ever seen in person and that includes Soto, Rustchman, and all of the other guys that have come through the minors the last 12 years or so. Slot THAT guy into the current offense without compromising the defense and holy crap are they scary good. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by banks703

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Joey at SS

Gunnar at 3B

Holliday at 2B

JW UTL with the ability to fill in each position and play outfield. I see him as a potential Zorbist guy if he remains in the org. I actually have thought for a long time that he gets moved for pitching.

Mayo is destined for 1B. He is not as good defensively at 3B as any of the above guys are at any of the IF positions. 

How much does Joey have to hit to justify getting his glove in at SS?  My hypothetical had him at .750 and 25 points below Westburg.  But would you still start him if he’s at .725 or .700 (leaving Westburg at .775)?

[Sports Guy]

20 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Let’s just do a little mental exercise.  Assume the following;

Holliday is an .875 OPS hitter, a 55 2B and a 50 SS.

Gunnar is an .825 OPS hitter, a 55 SS and a 60 3B

Ortiz is a .750 hitter, a 60 SS and a 65 2B.

Westburg is a .775 hitter, a 50 2B and 3B, and a 45 SS.   

Now that may not be exactly accurate, but it’s a decent approximation of what I expect.  Which three are your starters, and how do you align them?
 

Holliday SS, Ortiz at second, Gunnar at third and Westburg traded

Edited September 2, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

I’d be pretty surprised if Holliday was 50 points higher than Gunnar and if Gunnar was only an 825 OPS guy.

[banks703]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Holliday SS, Ortiz at second, Gunnar at third and Westburg traded

I have to assume that you’re only trolling at this point. You’re telling us that you would play both Ortiz (the premier SS in the org) and Holliday in the same lineup but put Ortiz at 2B and Holliday at SS. You would play the weakest defender at the most important position. You have to be trolling.