Why isn't Ortiz in Baltimore instead of Mateo?

[interloper]

The answer is simple.

Imagine that you DFA Mateo now, mere days before the deadline, and call up Ortiz. Oops, now Mike swings a deal involving Ortiz, and someone claims Mateo. You're left with a lot less MI depth suddenly, and in particular a lot less SS-capable MI depth. Your shortstops are now Gunnar who is battling a back injury, Urias who hasn't played SS in a long time, and Westburg, who they clearly prefer at 2B/3B. 

So - it's all about the trade deadline IMO. If Ortiz doesn't get traded, I think we see a swap fairly quickly on the other side of the deadline. 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

You did not respond to my argument. Equal does not improve the team. They can find time for him but there is no incentive to do so. To call him up now he has to be better. Do you want to go on record and say which of Westburg and Urias he is better than?

I think he absolutely can be better than either of them. Urias’ best trait is his defense. Ortiz is better defensively than him. Urias has a good but not great bat. I think Ortiz can be at least that.

As for Westburg, I like them pretty equally but if had to pick which one has the better career, it would probably be a slight lean to Ortiz but it’s awfully close for me.

 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

Why would Elias DFA Mateo when he is hitting 300/344/444/788 vs lefties and Gunnar  (622 OPS vs lefties),  Urias (565 vs lefties), and Frazier (604 vs lefties)  aren't hitting lefties?

Since May 1st Mateo has a .633 OPS against LHP. It's not worth keeping Mateo on the team because of his ability to hit LHP. If Elias wants to keep Mateo because of his defense and speed, then ok.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

The thing is that Mateo still has a 300 average vs lefties.   If he has been as bad as you say vs lefties I doubt the average would be at that level now.

Earl used to say he didn't worry about what a guy could not do.  He concentrated on what a guy could do.   Thus Andres Mora.

I was able to dig this up using the Fangraphs splits tool.: Mateo has hit .263/.300/.333 vs. LHP since May 1.  So, .633 OPS, compared to my .600 guess.  Sorry, but that is still well below average, and not enough to justify retaining him IMO.

Edir: just saw that the post immediately above mine made the same point, while I was busy researching and typing this.  Sorry, @OsFanSinceThe80s!

Edited July 28, 2023 by Frobby

[Spy Fox]

40 minutes ago, interloper said:

The answer is simple.

Imagine that you DFA Mateo now, mere days before the deadline, and call up Ortiz. Oops, now Mike swings a deal involving Ortiz, and someone claims Mateo. You're left with a lot less MI depth suddenly, and in particular a lot less SS-capable MI depth. Your shortstops are now Gunnar who is battling a back injury, Urias who hasn't played SS in a long time, and Westburg, who they clearly prefer at 2B/3B. 

So - it's all about the trade deadline IMO. If Ortiz doesn't get traded, I think we see a swap fairly quickly on the other side of the deadline. 

I think it's exactly this. I'm sure Elias agrees that Ortiz would be a better option than Mateo right now. But he wants to keep all his options open for the deadline. I agree with you that if our MI depth is unimpacted by the deadline, a Mateo DFA is coming in early August. 

[Aristotelian]

48 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I think he absolutely can be better than either of them. Urias’ best trait is his defense. Ortiz is better defensively than him. Urias has a good but not great bat. I think Ortiz can be at least that.

As for Westburg, I like them pretty equally but if had to pick which one has the better career, it would probably be a slight lean to Ortiz but it’s awfully close for me.

 

Whether Ortiz *can be* better is not the question. We are a contender so the question is who improves the team now. Unless you think he *is* better right now I don't see the case for calling him up right now. If Gunnars injury goes longer or Urias goes in a prolonged slump then I would reassess. 

[Sports Guy]

27 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Whether Ortiz *can be* better is not the question. We are a contender so the question is who improves the team now. Unless you think he *is* better right now I don't see the case for calling him up right now. If Gunnars injury goes longer or Urias goes in a prolonged slump then I would reassess. 

Until he plays, we don’t know. The talent and skill level is there.

[Aristotelian]

27 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Until he plays, we don’t know.

Which is why Elias hasn't made a move yet.

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think it does.

You don't have room on the roster for a guy that can hit OK against 25% of the pitchers out there but you can't trust to field his position.

I don't see Mateo as someone who can't field his position.  He might not be as good as he was last season but he is still a pretty darn good fielder IMO.

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, accinfo said:

I think 100% they add one catcher.

Yes they have in the passed but pitching is their biggest need.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I don't see Mateo as someone who can't field his position.  He might not be as good as he was last season but he is still a pretty darn good fielder IMO.

If we have a guy on the roster whose job it is is to provide quality defense at Shortstop, I'd rather have Ortiz.

[forphase1]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I don't see Mateo as someone who can't field his position.  He might not be as good as he was last season but he is still a pretty darn good fielder IMO.

But he's only good when getting regular playing time,  which his bat doesn't warrant him getting any longer.   Thus the defense suffers.  His bat is bad,  even against lefties since May, his defense is trending down with decrease playing time,  and he's not running on the bases the few times he's getting chances now.   Tell me again what he brings to that roster spot.....

[baltfan]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I think he absolutely can be better than either of them. Urias’ best trait is his defense. Ortiz is better defensively than him. Urias has a good but not great bat. I think Ortiz can be at least that.

As for Westburg, I like them pretty equally but if had to pick which one has the better career, it would probably be a slight lean to Ortiz but it’s awfully close for me.

 

How can you possibly say Ortiz is better defensively than Urias unless we are talking about SS which is Urias's weakest position? Urias has a legit GG at third and has looked like a GG fielder at second.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by baltfan

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Just Regular said:

I think September the pitcher roster limit only moves 13 to 14.

Idea being the game is more exciting if Terrance Gore or Enrique Bradfield plays, and not if you give the Brewers a zillionth lefty specialist to throw at Joey Votto.

OK, I see you are right.  14 pitchers max in September.

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I was able to dig this up using the Fangraphs splits tool.: Mateo has hit .263/.300/.333 vs. LHP since May 1.  So, .633 OPS, compared to my .600 guess.  Sorry, but that is still well below average, and not enough to justify retaining him IMO.

Edir: just saw that the post immediately above mine made the same point, while I was busy researching and typing this.  Sorry, @OsFanSinceThe80s!

OK, the two of you have convinced me.  Thanks for the research.