Why isn't Ortiz in Baltimore instead of Mateo?

[Sydnor]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

There are MANY other than these including the Athletic's (which I like), mlb.com, sportingnews (just to name a very few).

Keith Law is The Athletic. MLB.com is Pipeline. If you have some to share, by all means, do so.

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, Sydnor said:

Keith Law is The Athletic. MLB.com is Pipeline. If you have some to share, by all means, do so.

You know you can just Google, YouTube, or wherever you get podcasts right? There are no shortage of options.

[Sydnor]

13 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

You know you can just Google, YouTube, or wherever you get podcasts right? There are no shortage of options.

I do know how to search Google! I cited the 4 most widely respected rankings because you made a statement that appeared to be false. You said plenty of others disagree. You resort to that condescending nonsense rather than supporting your statement. That’s fine. I won’t engage further.

[Bemorewins]

Just now, Sydnor said:

I do know how to search Google! I cited the 4 most widely respected rankings because you made a statement that appeared to be false. You said plenty of others disagree. You resort to that condescending nonsense rather than supporting your statement. That’s fine. I won’t engage further.

I didn't mean to be condescending. I apologize.

[Bemorewins]

9 minutes ago, Sydnor said:

I do know how to search Google! I cited the 4 most widely respected rankings because you made a statement that appeared to be false. You said plenty of others disagree. You resort to that condescending nonsense rather than supporting your statement. That’s fine. I won’t engage further.

Here are just a few resources that I use:

https://www.prospectslive.com/prospects-live/2023/7/14/92recir8l22l56bq7l6bi6s2j3n03e - Cowser 13, Kjerstad 22, Mayo 32, Westburg 36, Basallo 64, Norby 74, Ortiz unrated.

This is a YouTube resource that I use (which is also in podcast form) - locked on podcast on YouTube

This is another one - justbaseball.com

If you scroll to the middle of the page, you will find the podcast where they discuss prospects

https://www.justbaseball.com/prospects/

I am not in any way trying to diminish Joey Ortiz. But there are some opinions about him that do not agree with some of the posters here regarding how great he is/will be.

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

 

I am not in any way trying to diminish Joey Ortiz. But there are some opinions about him that do not agree with some of the posters here regarding how great he is/will be.

I think the opinions that his defense is excellent are pretty much unanimous.  Opinions vary about how good his offense will be in the major leagues.   Here’s all I know: being better offensively than Mateo has been the last three months is about the lowest bar you could possibly have.  I’d peg the odds that Ortiz will do better than that at 80-90%, and he could be MUCH better.   So, I’d take my chances.  

[2001OriolesFan]

8 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Here are just a few resources that I use:

https://www.prospectslive.com/prospects-live/2023/7/14/92recir8l22l56bq7l6bi6s2j3n03e - Cowser 13, Kjerstad 22, Mayo 32, Westburg 36, Basallo 64, Norby 74, Ortiz unrated.

This is a YouTube resource that I use (which is also in podcast form) - locked on podcast on YouTube

This is another one - justbaseball.com

If you scroll to the middle of the page, you will find the podcast where they discuss prospects

https://www.justbaseball.com/prospects/

I am not in any way trying to diminish Joey Ortiz. But there are some opinions about him that do not agree with some of the posters here regarding how great he is/will be.

So how does that square with the batting order in Nofolk?  Why should that be more important than the batting data at AAA.   Ortiz has the highest batting average and 2nd highest OPS.  Somehow I think those facts should get in the way of overeducationed opinions.  https://www.milb.com/norfolk/stats/batting-average?playerPool=ALL

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, 2001OriolesFan said:

So how does that square with the batting order in Nofolk?  Why should that be more important than the batting data at AAA.   Ortiz has the highest batting average and 2nd highest OPS.  Somehow I think those facts should get in the way of overeducationed opinions.  https://www.milb.com/norfolk/stats/batting-average?playerPool=ALL

I’m not sure what you are responding to?

My opinion is that based upon some poster’s evaluations here about how great Ortiz is/will be, either he is underrated by some/many national observers or some posters here my be a little carried away a with the evaluations. I don’t know which is true. I will say that batting order at Norfolk and even AAA numbers in general (particularly for a 25 year old) mean very little to me.

Cowser and Westburg had incredible numbers at AAA and did any of that translate to immediate success at the big league level? Westburg had 17 home runs by mid June at AAA this year and has hit ONE in a month or so with the O’s. 

I think we have enough evidence now dating back to Adley and Gunnar, who by any measure are superior players/prospects/talents to Joey Ortiz, to surmise that most guys need to to adjust to the major jump in competition at this level.

Expecting immediate success based upon AAA numbers does not appear to be a wise thing. I have even hear it suggested that Ortiz/Westburg could be an All-star up the middle combo, which translates to saying that they will be of the caliber of Seager/Semien. To say that is lofty is being quite understated. I’ve heard other posters suggesting that they know more about Ortiz than Elias/Hyde, who they say are “underrating” him.

No, it’s not a high bar for Ortiz to perform better than Mateo (who shouldn’t even be on the team). However, when platitudes start getting thrown his way like they have here, IMO it creates unrealistic expectations.

Young players take time to develop and adjust. It looks like Grayson and Gunnar have figured things out or are at least well on their way to doing so. Their learning curves are what I expect as the norm for a young player/prospect, not a guy to step in and be immediately awesome (which is way more rare).

[2001OriolesFan]

 I wonder if part of the strategy is to bring in Ortiz late so he does NOT get 60 days of MLB service this year, can still could play in the postseason AND would still be a rookie with a potential to gain the O's another draft pick in 2025.

Quote

So, what is it about the PPI,  (Prospect Promotion Incentive,)  that has made teams change their tune about players needing to "work on their defense" or similar justifications deployed in the past? It comes down to capital. Players who win Rookie of the Year earn their team an amateur draft pick "after the first round," and second- or third-place finishers earn an international pick

Quote

Players must be Top 100 in two of the lists compiled by MLB.com, Baseball America or ESPN to qualify.

They also must be legitimate rookies, which means they have 60 days or fewer of MLB service.

The O’s could take several shots at these bonus picks.  Their candidates could be Kjerstad, Ortiz, Norby and Mayo.    

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/mlb-prospect-promotion-incentive-rookie-year-cba/ja5ts8eaxcuv85xujnzriafb

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/orioles/

[2001OriolesFan]

13 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I’m not sure what you are responding to?

My opinion is that based upon some poster’s evaluations here about how great Ortiz is/will be, either he is underrated by some/many national observers or some posters here my be a little carried away a with the evaluations. I don’t know which is true. I will say that batting order at Norfolk and even AAA numbers in general (particularly for a 25 year old) mean very little to me.

Cowser and Westburg had incredible numbers at AAA and did any of that translate to immediate success at the big league level? Westburg had 17 home runs by mid June at AAA this year and has hit ONE in a month or so with the O’s. 

I think we have enough evidence now dating back to Adley and Gunnar, who by any measure are superior players/prospects/talents to Joey Ortiz, to surmise that most guys need to to adjust to the major jump in competition at this level.

Expecting immediate success based upon AAA numbers does not appear to be a wise thing. I have even hear it suggested that Ortiz/Westburg could be an All-star up the middle combo, which translates to saying that they will be of the caliber of Seager/Semien. To say that is lofty is being quite understated. I’ve heard other posters suggesting that they know more about Ortiz than Elias/Hyde, who they say are “underrating” him.

No, it’s not a high bar for Ortiz to perform better than Mateo (who shouldn’t even be on the team). However, when platitudes start getting thrown his way like they have here, IMO it creates unrealistic expectations.

Young players take time to develop and adjust. It looks like Grayson and Gunnar have figured things out or are at least well on their way to doing so. Their learning curves are what I expect as the norm for a young player/prospect, not a guy to step in and be immediately awesome (which is way more rare).

"....I will say that batting order at Norfolk and even AAA numbers in general (particularly for a 25 year old) mean very little to me.  "         So baseball performance in the minor leagues is next to meaningless?   I'm reminded of a Disraeli (19th century British politician) saying " I would like to thank my opponent for taking the conversation to a regime where facts are not allowed to interfer with the free flow of ideas"

[Bemorewins]

21 minutes ago, 2001OriolesFan said:

"....I will say that batting order at Norfolk and even AAA numbers in general (particularly for a 25 year old) mean very little to me.  "         So baseball performance in the minor leagues is next to meaningless?   I'm reminded of a Disraeli (19th century British politician) saying " I would like to thank my opponent for taking the conversation to a regime where facts are not allowed to interfer with the free flow of ideas"

I started not to respond because the quote is a little unconnected but I give you kudos for knowing that quote!

Now back to baseball, what correlation have you personally found between what Gunnar did at AAA and what he did for the first 2 months of the season? What was the correlation between Westburg's 17 home runs at AAA this season and the one he has hit during his month with the Orioles? Any correlation between what Cowser did at AAA this season and what he has done during his short stay with the O's?

I'm open to hearing your opinion and if you desire to add a brilliant quote from a philosopher/painter/politician/humanitarian/whoever along with that I welcome that as well.

[emmett16]

14 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I started not to respond because the quote is a little unconnected but I give you kudos for knowing that quote!

Now back to baseball, what correlation have you personally found between what Gunnar did at AAA and what he did for the first 2 months of the season? What was the correlation between Westburg's 17 home runs at AAA this season and the one he has hit during his month with the Orioles? Any correlation between what Cowser did at AAA this season and what he has done during his short stay with the O's?

I'm open to hearing your opinion and if you desire to add a brilliant quote from a philosopher/painter/politician/humanitarian/whoever along with that I welcome that as well.

His eye and OBP translated.   He didn’t try to make things happen and change his approach.  He let the game come to him.  Similar to what Cowser is going through now (albeit with more struggles).
 

No one is saying he is going to come up here and set the world on fire.  That’s just not how it works.  His defense is MLB ready and his bat is ready for the next adjustment.  He will likely be better than Mateo at the plate and at least his equivalent in the field. 
 

Instead of writing mountains of paragraphs saying the same thing over and over, I’d suggest getting MiLB.TV & watching the games.  When you can, take a trip to to go see him play in person.  Watch him prepare before games, before ABs, and then watch his performance compared to the others on the team.  Ortiz is a fantastic ball player regardless of what national outlets have written about him.  Go watch him yourself and let us know your thoughts after watching him play a few games  

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

His eye and OBP translated.   He didn’t try to make things happen and change his approach.  He let the game come to him.  Similar to what Cowser is going through now (albeit with more struggles).
 

No one is saying he is going to come up here and set the world on fire.  That’s just not how it works.  His defense is MLB ready and his bat is ready for the next adjustment.  He will likely be better than Mateo at the plate and at least his equivalent in the field. 
 

Instead of writing mountains of paragraphs saying the same thing over and over, I’d suggest getting MiLB.TV & watching the games.  When you can, take a trip to to go see him play in person.  Watch him prepare before games, before ABs, and then watch his performance compared to the others on the team.  Ortiz is a fantastic ball player regardless of what national outlets have written about him.  Go watch him yourself and let us know your thoughts after watching him play a few games  

I have seen him play with the O's and with the Tides this year. (O's in person, Tides online.) I'm not doubting that he is a good prospect or that he could outperform Mateo right now.

I disagree with the bolded though. Some have said that he and Westburg will be an all-star combo for multiple years. I hope that's true. But I think that is a really high bar to clear.

I just hope people/posters/fans set realistic expectations for our young players instead of continuously clamoring for the next one to come up and then after a week complaining because they are not performing up to the level that those unrealistic expectations created. 

[btdart20]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

I’m not sure what you are responding to?

My opinion is that based upon some poster’s evaluations here about how great Ortiz is/will be, either he is underrated by some/many national observers or some posters here my be a little carried away a with the evaluations. I don’t know which is true. I will say that batting order at Norfolk and even AAA numbers in general (particularly for a 25 year old) mean very little to me.

Cowser and Westburg had incredible numbers at AAA and did any of that translate to immediate success at the big league level? Westburg had 17 home runs by mid June at AAA this year and has hit ONE in a month or so with the O’s. 

I think we have enough evidence now dating back to Adley and Gunnar, who by any measure are superior players/prospects/talents to Joey Ortiz, to surmise that most guys need to to adjust to the major jump in competition at this level.

Expecting immediate success based upon AAA numbers does not appear to be a wise thing. I have even hear it suggested that Ortiz/Westburg could be an All-star up the middle combo, which translates to saying that they will be of the caliber of Seager/Semien. To say that is lofty is being quite understated. I’ve heard other posters suggesting that they know more about Ortiz than Elias/Hyde, who they say are “underrating” him.

No, it’s not a high bar for Ortiz to perform better than Mateo (who shouldn’t even be on the team). However, when platitudes start getting thrown his way like they have here, IMO it creates unrealistic expectations.

Young players take time to develop and adjust. It looks like Grayson and Gunnar have figured things out or are at least well on their way to doing so. Their learning curves are what I expect as the norm for a young player/prospect, not a guy to step in and be immediately awesome (which is way more rare).

You’ve clearly made up your mind about Ortiz and are grasping at straws.  That’s fine.

The bar isn’t immediate success, it’s just better than Mateo.  The FO had a short leash with him earlier.  I think (if he’s still with the team) his next shot will have a longer leash.

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, btdart20 said:

You’ve clearly made up your mind about Ortiz and are grasping at straws.  That’s fine.

The bar isn’t immediate success, it’s just better than Mateo.  The FO had a short leash with him earlier.  I think (if he’s still with the team) his next shot will have a longer leash.

I made up my mind? About what? I think if you read the posts that I made in this thread, you will not see any negative word that I wrote about Joey Ortiz. 

However, what you might instead read is an attempt to manage expectations in terms of what may be realistic for a young player/prospect (though highly talented) will see be adjusting to the highest level of competition that he has ever faced.