“Ortiz is going to have a long future as a starting shortstop, and here is the most likely place”

[25 Nuggets]

1 minute ago, Fan4Life said:

I have seen commentary that Santander should likely be moved this offseason.  Is anyone in favor of keeping him around? 

I think more people here would rather keep Santander than Hays, FWIW.  But he is essentially playing what Kjerstad's role will be, and he's very likely not moving to that cavernous LF.  I'm not complaining if he stays because I have confidence there will be a plan.

[waroriole]

11 minutes ago, Fan4Life said:

I have seen commentary that Santander should likely be moved this offseason.  Is anyone in favor of keeping him around? 

If Santander weren’t on our team, OH would want to acquire a bat like his at the deadline. If you’re competing for a WS next year, why would you get rid of him?

[Fan4Life]

5 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

I think more people here would rather keep Santander than Hays, FWIW.  But he is essentially playing what Kjerstad's role will be, and he's very likely not moving to that cavernous LF.  I'm not complaining if he stays because I have confidence there will be a plan.

Yes this seems to be the thinking. That's a lot of production to look for from a rookie.  Wouldn't it be prudent to get him some MLB atbats to gauge this plan or would the sample size be worthless?

[webbrick2010]

25 minutes ago, Fan4Life said:

I have seen commentary that Santander should likely be moved this offseason.  Is anyone in favor of keeping him around? 

I am in favor of keeping him. I have been saying for several years that I see him on a Joey Bautista career arc. He will have 30+ HR's this year, and I believe he will have 40+ seasons in the future. Switch hitters who hit 35+ HR's don't grow on trees. He is valuable.

[CaptainRedbeard]

32 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

The probability looks like four players that share the three positions.  Henderson (L), Holliday (L), Ortiz (R) and Westburg (R).

The Orioles already show that they prefer a rotating DH.

Mayo at 1B, and can cover 3B.  Kjerstad DH/RF.  It seems to all be in place.  The question is if any of the incumbents (O'Hearn, Urias, Mateo, maybe Frazier) are kept around.

I agree this is likely the plan, unless a deal comes along where it makes sense to move one of Westburg/Ortiz. But there is still some time before Holliday forces the issue, he’s a likely Sep 2024 call-up. By 2025 Urias and Mateo will be 31 and 30, respectively, and definite nontender candidates if they haven’t already been traded, considering how much value they derive from defense and the aging curve for that.

It’s a bit of a luxury, but you can easily accommodate 4 starting caliber players for the 3 IF positions. The Orioles are doing it right now with Urias/Frazier and even Mateo getting decent playing time with Gunnar and Westburg. You need depth in case of injuries, and prospects are no sure thing anyway.

They clearly prefer a rotating DH and likely Westburg will be the piece that moves around most. He’s tall enough to play 1B and also fast enough to perhaps play LF (and he played a little LF in the minors). Wouldn’t put him out there in OPACY of course, but he could provide that flexibility.

[RZNJ]

Santander can rotate between RF/1B/DH next year.  We may still have the O’Hearn/Mountcastle platoon at 1B.   Hayes goes and Cowser takes over LF.   Kjerstad slowly gets worked into the RF mix.   O’s probably look for a veteran OF who can play CF (preferably a SH or RH).   Or maybe they even keep Hays and try to make it all work.   Of the two, Santander is more important to Hays.

Edited August 2, 2023 by RZNJ

[emmett16]

53 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

I think more people here would rather keep Santander than Hays, FWIW.  But he is essentially playing what Kjerstad's role will be, and he's very likely not moving to that cavernous LF.  I'm not complaining if he stays because I have confidence there will be a plan.

I see Tony going to 1B.  Mayo has work to do at AAA and will likely get a full year there next year.  Mountcastle is likely to get the Renato Nuñez treatment and I doubt O’Hearn has a place on the team either.  Imagine Hays is starting LF and Cowser is 4th OF until he shows he is ready for full time ABs. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by emmett16

[Fan4Life]

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Santander can rotate between RF/1B/DH next year.  We may still have the O’Hearn/Mountcastle platoon at 1B.   Hayes goes and Cowser takes over LF.   Kjerstad slowly gets worked into the RF mix.   O’s probably look for a veteran OF who can play CF (preferably a SH or RH).   Or maybe they even keep Hays and try to make it all work.   Of the two, Santander is more important to Hays.

Is there a money difference between keeping Santander over Hays?

[Matt Bennett]

On 7/29/2023 at 1:11 PM, G54377 said:

There are 3 infield spots for Holliday/Ortiz/Westburg/Gunnar. Something has to give. Unless one of them DH's and rotates around. 

Nope, something doesn’t have to give. You want more than 9 position players. You need more than 3 guys taking the at-bats at 2B/SS/3B. Right now we have Henderson, Westburg, Urias, Frazier, Mateo. I think that’s a little crowded sure. But Ortiz could easily take over for Mateo/Frazier or in the short term (2023/2024) and take over for Urias (2024/2025) when Holliday is up and get significant at-bats. There’s room for Ortiz in the near and long term future. He is not blocked. 

[CaptainRedbeard]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Santander can rotate between RF/1B/DH next year.  We may still have the O’Hearn/Mountcastle platoon at 1B.   Hayes goes and Cowser takes over LF.   Kjerstad slowly gets worked into the RF mix.   O’s probably look for a veteran OF who can play CF (preferably a SH or RH).   Or maybe they even keep Hays and try to make it all work.   Of the two, Santander is more important to Hays.

A lot depends on how they view Kjerstad. If they are planning on the “Gunnar timeline” with a September debut and full playing time next year for a shot at ROY, then it’s going to be hard to fit everybody in without a trade. If it’s the “Westburg/Ortiz timeline” with him getting more time in AAA than likely necessary and maybe being a mid-year call up / depth option, then you keep Santander another year. 

It doesn’t help that Cowser has not been good and looks poor in CF. They’ll need to use a roster spot on a backup CF unless they are comfortable with Cowser or Hays as the backup, which squeezes the roster and playing time even more. 

[Bemorewins]

22 minutes ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

I agree this is likely the plan, unless a deal comes along where it makes sense to move one of Westburg/Ortiz. But there is still some time before Holliday forces the issue, he’s a likely Sep 2024 call-up. By 2025 Urias and Mateo will be 31 and 30, respectively, and definite nontender candidates if they haven’t already been traded, considering how much value they derive from defense and the aging curve for that.

It’s a bit of a luxury, but you can easily accommodate 4 starting caliber players for the 3 IF positions. The Orioles are doing it right now with Urias/Frazier and even Mateo getting decent playing time with Gunnar and Westburg. You need depth in case of injuries, and prospects are no sure thing anyway.

They clearly prefer a rotating DH and likely Westburg will be the piece that moves around most. He’s tall enough to play 1B and also fast enough to perhaps play LF (and he played a little LF in the minors). Wouldn’t put him out there in OPACY of course, but he could provide that flexibility.

I hope that Mateo is DFA after this season. He’s not the kind of player who should have a place on a championship caliber team. 

Also, I hope the plan is not to keep Holliday down in the Minors all year next year. That IMO would be a huge mistake. He can hit Major League pitching right now. By the end of this season, he should be done with AA. Therefore it makes little to no sense to hold an uber talent like him at AAA for an entire season. IMO he is a better hitter right now than Westburg, Ortiz, Norby, Urias, Mateo, and probably even Frazier. The kid is special.

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Fan4Life said:

Is there a money difference between keeping Santander over Hays?

Santander is closer to FA and will cost more.   In this case, I don’t think it will be the deciding factor.    Wildcard feels differently.

[Fan4Life]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I hope that Mateo is DFA after this season. He’s not the kind of player who should have a place on a championship caliber team. 

Also, I hope the plan is not to keep Holliday down in the Minors all year next year. That IMO would be a huge mistake. He can hit Major League pitching right now. By the end of this season, he should be done with AA. Therefore it makes little to no sense to hold an uber talent like him at AAA for an entire season. IMO he is a better hitter right now than Westburg, Ortiz, Norby, Urias, Mateo, and probably even Frazier. The kid is special.

How many games are left in MILB? Would he get a chance with the MLB club in September before a move to  end his season in AAA?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Fan4Life

[Matt Bennett]

2 minutes ago, Fan4Life said:

Is there a money difference between keeping Santander over Hays?

Who cares. I’m going to lose it if we have to worry about whether Ownership can pay productive players their arbitration raises. Forbes suggests the O’s were the 4th most profitable team in 2022. Add another year of a big increase in attendance + playoffs and still not a big payroll increase…Angelos is swimming in it. 

[25 Nuggets]

47 minutes ago, Fan4Life said:

Yes this seems to be the thinking. That's a lot of production to look for from a rookie.  Wouldn't it be prudent to get him some MLB atbats to gauge this plan or would the sample size be worthless?

The way I see it, just because you're a top prospect doesn't mean you have to have every at bat.  Assuming an even split, the future of the team has 13 spots for grabs.  Most are easy fills:

1. Rutschman (C/DH)

2. Basallo (C/??)

3. Henderson (3B/SS)

4. Holliday (SS/3B/2B)

5. Ortiz (SS/2B)

6. Westburg (2B/3B)

7. Mayo (1B/3B)

8. Kjerstad (RF/DH/1B)

9. Cowser (LF/CF/RF)

10. Norby (LF/??)

11. Mullins (CF) - arbitration through 2026

12. ???

13. ???

Outfield has the most wiggle room so Santander can certainly stick around, especially if Kjerstad primarily plays DH.  You've also got Hays, and O'Hearn and Urias have played at 1B.  The Orioles will not pay everyone in arbitration, and trade somebody for more prospects and/or pitching in the off season.