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[FutureOwner]

Good point. Dodger pitchers put up a .414 OPS in 289 AB. Take those out and the Dodgers probably were better.

But not better than enough teams in their division to make the playoffs, and adding a guy who barely hit his weight last year and a #3 pitcher from Japan isnt likely to change that.

[Jericho]

But the Dodgers ARE contenders. They won 82 games last year and could have easily won more.

You're assuming that teams are static and everyone's the same each year. The Rockies won 76 games last year and made no huge additions. In fact they made a deal trading away Jason Jennings which was supposed to be hurtful in the short term (Didn't quite work out that way). Yet they won 90 and the NL Pennant.

The Dodgers can win the West with their 2007 squad. Just like the Rockies made a leap forward. It may or may not happen, but the basic nucleus is there. And considering the youth on many players, getting full seasons from Billingsley, Loney, and Kemp among others would only improve their projections. And adding Jones and Kuroda further improve those projections. So they're legit contenders, with or without Bedard.

[FutureOwner]

If you say so. Theyve got to hope the players on their team improve enough to jump 3 teams for the division or hope for the wildcard, when the Phillies and Mets will almost certainly be better.

I just dont see how theyve improved enough to be serious about contending. If theyd added Bedard and Tejada they would be much better off in the short term, and if they only added Bedard, they still would be better off.

Adding Jones and Kuroda will not have much of an impact, and I doubt Penny pitches as well this season.

[RShack]

Good point. Dodger pitchers put up a .414 OPS in 289 AB. Take those out and the Dodgers probably were better.

Right. But if you look at where the teams finished in the standings, they both finished in next-to-last place. Yes, the Dodgers won 13 more games than the O's did, while playing in a very so-so division. If we're arguing that one team's 4th-place finish is better than another team's 4th-place finish, well...

If we adjust for the O's extraordinary number of 8th-inning BP melt-downs, how much different were they really?

[erb8472]

If you say so. Theyve got to hope the players on their team improve enough to jump 3 teams for the division or hope for the wildcard, when the Phillies and Mets will almost certainly be better.

I just dont see how theyve improved enough to be serious about contending. If theyd added Bedard and Tejada they would be much better off in the short term, and if they only added Bedard, they still would be better off.

Adding Jones and Kuroda will not have much of an impact, and I doubt Penny pitches as well this season.

I'm upset we didn't trade Bedard to the Dodgers, but that's no reason to rag on them regarding how their GM decided to do things. He decided it would be better to sign a guy like Kuroda and Andruw Jones, and keep all of his young talent.

I can't really argue with that.

[erb8472]

Right. But if you look at where the teams finished in the standings, they both finished in next-to-last place. Yes, the Dodgers won 13 more games than the O's did, while playing in a very so-so division. If we're arguing that one team's 4th-place finish is better than another team's 4th-place finish, well...

If we adjust for the O's extraordinary number of 8th-inning BP melt-downs, how much different were they really?

It's honestly apples and oranges because one plays in the NL and one in the AL.

You can't really compare the number of win's to determine whos a better team.

I much rather have the Dodgers offense last year, this year, next year to what the O's have right now or had last season.

[Jericho]

If you say so. Theyve got to hope the players on their team improve enough to jump 3 teams for the division or hope for the wildcard, when the Phillies and Mets will almost certainly be better.

I just dont see how theyve improved enough to be serious about contending. If theyd added Bedard and Tejada they would be much better off in the short term, and if they only added Bedard, they still would be better off.

Adding Jones and Kuroda will not have much of an impact, and I doubt Penny pitches as well this season.

Why do you act like everything will be the same in '08? The Rockies won 76 games in '06 and made no major moves. The Diamondbacks won 76 games in '06 and made no majors moves (unless you count adding a broken down Randy Johnson). The Cleveland Indians won 78 games and made no major moves. The Brewers won 75 games and traded away their best hitter during the season (Carlos Lee). All four of those teams were playoff contenders, the first three making the playoffs.

The simple fact is that just because a team does well one year, doesn't mean it will duplicate its success. At some point you trust your core of players, and many times that core improves on its own. The Indians were a four place team in 2005, but stayed the course and won the division. You act like the Dodgers are an absolute for fourth, when they could just as easily finish first (or anywhere in between).

[FutureOwner]

you act like its an absolute that their "core group" of players will improve.

Who is likely to do so much better next season? Do you think Lowe and Penny will be better?

I would rather improve and leave less to be assumed. Assuming Bedard, Leowen and Cabrera were going to turn into Zito, Mulder and Hudson got the Orioles really far.

All Im saying is that from how I see the Dodger vs the teams in their division, theyd be better off either rebuilding the way the Orioles are, accept they already have players to fill post positions, cut payroll and send vets who block young players away, and really go for it in 09 when there is a much better FA class, or really put together a winning ballclub by trading from the strength of the minor league depth.

They are somewhere in between. They finished 4th last year and sign 2 mediocre FA's for a lot of money. You assume the other teams in the division are just going to get worse, while the Dodgers are going to get better. I see their best pitcher from last year as more likely to take a step back, and them wishing theyd have pulled the trigger on Bedard.

I dont hold anything against the Dodgers. I dont care one way or another, but since the trade talk has gone on Ive become familiar with their team and I think their GM has made some moves this offseason that are questionable, and I would not be happy about those moves if I were a Dodger fan.

[ACE]

All Im saying is that from how I see the Dodger vs the teams in their division, theyd be better off either rebuilding the way the Orioles are, accept they already have players to fill post positions, cut payroll and send vets who block young players away, and really go for it in 09 when there is a much better FA class, or really put together a winning ballclub by trading from the strength of the minor league depth.

The Dodgers managed to stay competitive while still developing the farm system. Honestly, I am quietly jealous of their situation. I completely understand building for the future and like every team, they have some veterans they could cut ties with.

but...

Penny, Jones, Pierre & Furcal are only in their early 30s.

Plus they should have around 1/3 of the opening day roster who is around 25 or younger.

25 and Under

Martin

Loney

Laroche

Kemp

Either (26)

Broxton

Meloan

Billingsley

Plus, Kershaw, Abreu, Hu, McDonald and others in the minors.

It feels like some on this board are taking personal offense to the Dodgers pulling the rug on our Bedard fantasy.

Would it have been great to land Kemp and Co. for Bedard? yes, but I still think they will be a pretty good baseball team next year and the years to come.

[FutureOwner]

The Dodgers managed to stay competitive while still developing the farm system. Honestly, I am quietly jealous of their situation. I completely understand building for the future and like every team, they have some veterans they could cut ties with.

but...

Penny, Jones, Pierre & Furcal are only in their early 30s.

Plus they should have around 1/3 of the opening day roster who is around 25 or younger.

25 and Under

Martin

Loney

Laroche

Kemp

Either (26)

Broxton

Meloan

Billingsley

Plus, Kershaw, Abreu, Hu, McDonald and others in the minors.

It feels like some on this board are taking personal offense to the Dodgers pulling the rug on our Bedard fantasy.

Would it have been great to land Kemp and Co. for Bedard? yes, but I still think they will be a pretty good baseball team next year and the years to come.

They won 82 games last year. They need to win 8-10 more to make the playoffs. Does the addition of Jones and Juroda make them a 90 win team? I dont think theres any chance that they do.

Im sorry, Im just not impressed with their current lineup that they are bringing. They are the 3rd ofr 4th best team in their division, and they just added over $20M to their payroll.

Im not bitter over the Bedard situation. I think Bedard would certainly make sense to them, with or without Kuroda, if they are serious about competing.

The only SP they have that Id even be remotely interested in aquiring would be Billingsley, rebuilding or not rebuilding. I think the rest of them are overpaid 3's and 4's, and that doesnt win in the playoffs.

I just feel like you should always be building your team to go to the WS, and you are either building it to go this year or you are building it to go in the future. The team isnt going as it is constructed. It could be, but its not.

Penny, Lowe and Kuroda have swept in the first round written all over them, if they were to somehow make it that far.

[clarence]

If I'm a Dodgers fan and I'm sitting there with Penny in the last year of his contract and Schmidt as such a question mark, I'm going crazy wanting the front office to make the move for Bedard. There aren't a lot of times you have a chance to win it all and Bedard makes your chances a lot better. Part of the value of prospects is them being available to help your team go from a pretender to a contender. Right now, the Dodgers are in a huge group of pretenders in the NL. They have a lot of young (unproven) prospects, but the Rockies have young proven players. It isn't a guarantee that this group is ever going to amount to more than the DBacks or Rockies are over the next five years. They are taking a big gamble and I bet Torre isn't that excited about it.

[roncey10]

The Dodgers managed to stay competitive while still developing the farm system. Honestly, I am quietly jealous of their situation. I completely understand building for the future and like every team, they have some veterans they could cut ties with.

but...

Penny, Jones, Pierre & Furcal are only in their early 30s.

Penny is 29

Pierre, Furcal and Jones are 30

[roncey10]

If I'm a Dodgers fan and I'm sitting there with Penny in the last year of his contract and Schmidt as such a question mark, I'm going crazy wanting the front office to make the move for Bedard. There aren't a lot of times you have a chance to win it all and Bedard makes your chances a lot better. Part of the value of prospects is them being available to help your team go from a pretender to a contender. Right now, the Dodgers are in a huge group of pretenders in the NL. They have a lot of young (unproven) prospects, but the Rockies have young proven players. It isn't a guarantee that this group is ever going to amount to more than the DBacks or Rockies are over the next five years. They are taking a big gamble and I bet Torre isn't that excited about it.

Penny has two years left when you include a 2009 club option at less than $10 million which is a bargain in this market.

[roncey10]

If I'm a Dodgers fan and I'm sitting there with Penny in the last year of his contract and Schmidt as such a question mark, I'm going crazy wanting the front office to make the move for Bedard. There aren't a lot of times you have a chance to win it all and Bedard makes your chances a lot better. Part of the value of prospects is them being available to help your team go from a pretender to a contender. Right now, the Dodgers are in a huge group of pretenders in the NL. They have a lot of young (unproven) prospects, but the Rockies have young proven players. It isn't a guarantee that this group is ever going to amount to more than the DBacks or Rockies are over the next five years. They are taking a big gamble and I bet Torre isn't that excited about it.

With the exception of LaRoche all the young players the Dodgers will be starting this year have had success in more than token ABs or innings at the Major League level. The prospects will play a role in 2009 and beyond.

The Dodgers had the best record in the National League in late July, won 82 games last year and that is despite:

Grady Little's small leadership

30 starts by Hendrickson and Tomko

100s of wasted ABs on Gonzalez, Nomar, Saenz, Betemit, etc.

Replace that with starts by Billingsley and Kuroda

Replace the ABs with Jones, Kemp, Loney, Ethier, and maybe LaRoche.

Add in Joe Torre

That has to mean another at least another eight wins and a playoff spot.

If Billingsley takes the next step, a Penny, Billingsley, Lowe front three in the playoffs would not be bad. Certainly as good as the Mets, Phils, Rockies, Cubs, etc.

[sundaysilence89]

I think their GM has made some moves this offseason that are questionable, and I would not be happy about those moves if I were a Dodger fan.

I am a Dodgers fan, and I am absolutely thrilled w/ the moves Coletti made or didn't make. Even if the Dodgers finished 4th again this year I'm ok with it.

We will still have Kershaw (who if even he lives up to 80% of his hype will be the best Dodger pitcher since Fernando & Orel), Kemp (who if he keeps progressing the way he has will be a 30-30 guy for 6-8 years) & LaRoche (who I am the most excited about, his minor league potential was better thought of than Kemp, Martin & Loney).

If we were able to pull off a D-Backs trade where we didnt give up anyone who is projected to be a starter this season or our #1 prospect, then I would upset. But I doubt that most of O's fans would be ok w/ a trade of Elbert, Hu, DeWitt, Meloan & McDonald.

If Kuroda doesnt do anything this next season then we are out only money. And if the Dodger's FO thinks we need to make a trade mid season we will still have all the minor leaguers to pull one off. And if Elbert comes back healthy along w/ B. Morris that will just bolster our tradeable commodites.