Hunter Harvey the reliever

[Sessh]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

One time where converting someone to a reliever made sense.

Mariano Rivera, Zach Britton, Josh Hader etc... most pitchers begin as starters. Converting them to relievers is pretty common based on either injury, ineffectiveness or need, I would say.

5 hours ago, Aglets said:

woot, still have a bit of recall.  

Zumaya's arm basically broke at 27 and he retired not long after that so hopefully the comps to Harvey don't run too close.   

That arm action is why his arm fell apart and was also responsible for his velocity. Elbow way above shoulder level and arm is upside down instead of upright, ball facing second base or first base. His arm is all twisted up. Just horrible.

Harvey doesn't get his arm not up at footstrike and ball facing second base which indicates premature pronation of the arm and limits external rotation of the arm IIRC. I think I've heard it referred to before somewhere as the Tommy John twist as it puts unnecessary stress on the elbow and the shoulder. Not nearly as bad as Zumaya, but not good either and not hard to see where his injuries came from. I would also point out that this sort of thing was something pitchers used to be taught to do.. on purpose. I'm sure it still is in some circles because again, doing this stuff increases velocity while simultaneously increasing the chances of overloading and injuring the elbow and shoulder. It's basically a deal with the devil and this, IMO, is the problem with pitching today and why we see so many injuries to pitchers.

It's amazing he hasn't lost any velocity and I hope I'm wrong, but I think this might be one of those bright flames that burn hot for a short time. I'm happy he's here and will enjoy every second he's here.

That's what you want to see.

[tntoriole]

3 hours ago, Sessh said:

Mariano Rivera, Zach Britton, Josh Hader etc... most pitchers begin as starters. Converting them to relievers is pretty common based on either injury, ineffectiveness or need, I would say.

That arm action is why his arm fell apart and was also responsible for his velocity. Elbow way above shoulder level and arm is upside down instead of upright, ball facing second base or first base. His arm is all twisted up. Just horrible.

Harvey doesn't get his arm not up at footstrike and ball facing second base which indicates premature pronation of the arm and limits external rotation of the arm IIRC. I think I've heard it referred to before somewhere as the Tommy John twist as it puts unnecessary stress on the elbow and the shoulder. Not nearly as bad as Zumaya, but not good either and not hard to see where his injuries came from. I would also point out that this sort of thing was something pitchers used to be taught to do.. on purpose. I'm sure it still is in some circles because again, doing this stuff increases velocity while simultaneously increasing the chances of overloading and injuring the elbow and shoulder. It's basically a deal with the devil and this, IMO, is the problem with pitching today and why we see so many injuries to pitchers.

It's amazing he hasn't lost any velocity and I hope I'm wrong, but I think this might be one of those bright flames that burn hot for a short time. I'm happy he's here and will enjoy every second he's here.

That's what you want to see.

I agree with you that Hunter still does not use the type of lower body drive and smooth bringing along of the arm that characterize the great longevity, fastball pitchers.  

The tremendously powerful thrust in Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, etc. is generated primarily from the thighs and hips and transition of force going forward.  The arm coming through is just delivering those forces, not generating them from the shoulder to the elbow.   It is a much less stressful task, of course, for the elbow and shoulder to do it the way Nolan, Tom, etc. deliver the ball, but it requires a maniacal focus on lower extremity aspects of the delivery. 

 

 

[tntoriole]

Balance is such a key in the great pitchers....knowing at all times where their bodies are in space and to drive toward the spot while keeping their legs, arm in sync...

Pedro does a great job here in this interview of noting the all too common problem of young pitchers opening up and the stress on their elbows.

 

 

[bobmc]

3 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Balance is such a key in the great pitchers....knowing at all times where their bodies are in space and to drive toward the spot while keeping their legs, arm in sync...

Pedro does a great job here in this interview of noting the all too common problem of young pitchers opening up and the stress on their elbows.

 

 

From today's Melewski article @Sessh:

 

https://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2019/08/hunter-harvey-on-bullpen-role-i-hope-i-stay-there.html

[Sessh]

Wojo is another one that doesn't look great. Elbow above shoulder, arm not up, ball facing second base.

What's amazing to me is how analytics don't even touch this stuff. At least, it doesn't seem to. Pitchers still come up with the same mechanical flaws and eventually get the same injuries. I'm not sure why this is still a mystery at all. Improve this stuff and I think pitcher injuries will decline. Shorter innings won't help these guys. It will just prolong whatever they have coming to them.

[LookinUp]

I love what @Sessh and @tntoriole have done with this thread.

[Hallas]

50 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Wojo is another one that doesn't look great. Elbow above shoulder, arm not up, ball facing second base.

What's amazing to me is how analytics don't even touch this stuff. At least, it doesn't seem to. Pitchers still come up with the same mechanical flaws and eventually get the same injuries. I'm not sure why this is still a mystery at all. Improve this stuff and I think pitcher injuries will decline. Shorter innings won't help these guys. It will just prolong whatever they have coming to them.

My understanding is that there analytics for biomechanics, but it’s very proprietary so the public doesn’t get to see it.  MLB Gameday does provide some basic info, such as release point, release angle, stride length.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

Wojo is another one that doesn't look great. Elbow above shoulder, arm not up, ball facing second base.

What's amazing to me is how analytics don't even touch this stuff. At least, it doesn't seem to. Pitchers still come up with the same mechanical flaws and eventually get the same injuries. I'm not sure why this is still a mystery at all. Improve this stuff and I think pitcher injuries will decline. Shorter innings won't help these guys. It will just prolong whatever they have coming to them.

Because all people aren't the same, and everyone can't just flip a switch and alter the mechanics they've had for many years.  It's probable that at least some pitchers would be less effective using mechanically "better" deliveries.  And for some of these guys on the fence between the majors and AAA taking months or years to retool their mechanics might temporarily reduce their effectiveness enough that they're out of baseball.

[LookinUp]

6 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Because all people aren't the same, and everyone can't just flip a switch and alter the mechanics they've had for many years.  It's probable that at least some pitchers would be less effective using mechanically "better" deliveries.  And for some of these guys on the fence between the majors and AAA taking months or years to retool their mechanics might temporarily reduce their effectiveness enough that they're out of baseball.

If these deliveries can predictably result in injuries, and the O's picked up Wojo this year, than either Mike and Sig don't know about it, they don't have the data, or they're trying to get a short term payoff on a medium term risk. 

[DrungoHazewood]

Just now, LookinUp said:

If these deliveries can predictably result in injuries, and the O's picked up Wojo this year, than either Mike and Sig don't know about it, they don't have the data, or they're trying to get a short term payoff on a medium term risk. 

I think it's the case of something like delivery A gets you hurt 25% of the time and delivery B 12%.  It's not 90% and 5%.  

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Because all people aren't the same, and everyone can't just flip a switch and alter the mechanics they've had for many years.  It's probable that at least some pitchers would be less effective using mechanically "better" deliveries.  And for some of these guys on the fence between the majors and AAA taking months or years to retool their mechanics might temporarily reduce their effectiveness enough that they're out of baseball.

Well, it's something that has to be implemented from the ground up. I agree with what you're saying, but those months or years they could be using to retool their delivery will likely be spent on the DL down the road which will eventually cost them that effectiveness and possibly their careers anyway. It took Roy Halladay about a year to reinvent himself though that wasn't due to injuries, but ineffectiveness. Pedro Martinez above touched on another aspect of it. It just seems bizarre that we generally know what's going on, but very little is being done in response.

Then again, if it's giving them the results they want, why change? What pitching coach is going to step in and suggest it and how many pitchers would even go along with it? That number is probably very low and I guess pitchers are ok with injuries that are, to some degree, preventable and will likely cost them years of DL time and possibly their careers. These guys are learning to throw this way at a young age and that's where these changes need to start. As long as velocity is king, shortcuts to that goal will be taken at the expense of everything else and the injury epidemic will continue. Definitely not an easy fix, but it's probably a good idea to figure it out.

[Sessh]

15 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think it's the case of something like delivery A gets you hurt 25% of the time and delivery B 12%.  It's not 90% and 5%.  

Certain mechanical characteristics are pretty accurate predictors for injury. It's like weight training. There's a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way WILL get you injured eventually. You're talking about max effort forces being applied in both situations. If you do squats wrong, your lower back will suffer. Any heavy weight bearing exercise done improperly and often enough will eventually cause injury. Pitching is no different especially when the way you do it puts all or most of the stress on ligaments where it shouldn't be.