This loss is on Hyde

[eddie83]

I’ll say this. This is not meant to be a knock on the Orioles but you saw last night the quality of at bats from Houston in the 9th. Their lineup 7-9 is not good. We let those guys get on too much.  Now they rested a couple of guys as well. 
 

We really need a couple of more professional hitters to fill out the lineup. 

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It's all game theory.  If everyone including the batter knows a high fastball is the right call and assumes it's coming, do you really throw the high fastball every time?

You do when the hitter is demonstrating he can’t get to it. If he beats you with your best, after showing he can’t do it, so be it. 

[Aristotelian]

36 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

That’s where I’m at. And not to open up a whole OH can of worms but it made me wonder if he got that pitch selection from the dugout because I’ve been trained to believe that Adley’s baseball IQ is off the charts. And that wasn’t a smart call. 

A fastball up and in the zone gets the job done. 

Would have been my preference too and Palmer called it too BUT I'm also fine with the splitter. If you want to throw off their timing and show them another pitch, bury one in the dirt they have no chance of hitting. The splitter *in the zone* on 0-2 was the problem. They did the same thing on Vazquez (0-2, fouled off splitter and slider), Alvarez (0-2 splitter), and Tucker (1+2 splitter). Hopefully Holt talks to these guys and they learn something from it.

By the way, as good as our bullpen has been, I would spend some of our $100M+ of payroll space on a veteran reliever. 

 

 

[spleen1015]

How about the best team in the AL finally got to our pitching?

I don't think Hyde did anything different than many other situations this season. This time the Astros just got hits.

[ScGO's]

This is on Hyde and whoever was calling pitches in the 9th

With 3 straight performances by our SPs, Baumann should have came out for the 5th and maybe even the 6th if he continued to roll. Then krehbiel should have been pulled 2 batters sooner, as even the 1 out he recorded was just missed. 

Then Bautista shows a dominant fastball, but every 2 strike pitch was a splitter and everyone in the stadium knew it was coming. And Astros were so thankful that Bautista chose not to throw his 103 mph fastball, and instead allowed them to be timed up for the 90 mph split in the middle of the zone. He has a good splitter but needs to throw it less in my opinion.

Also not sure why Santander is in the OF that late in the game.

 

[banks703]

59 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

That’s where I’m at. And not to open up a whole OH can of worms but it made me wonder if he got that pitch selection from the dugout because I’ve been trained to believe that Adley’s baseball IQ is off the charts. And that wasn’t a smart call. 

A fastball up and in the zone gets the job done. 

They were going to the splitter because he couldn’t command the fastball. They were pitching scared. Got to trust your stuff. Pitchers have off-nights all the time and obviously no one is perfect but when a guy is two days late on your fastball, even if he knows it’s coming, you have to try to go outside the zone and make him chase. They couldn’t do that because going anywhere away from the mitt might have resulted in another wild pitch. 
 

Adley digs, blocks, saves the ball as well as any catcher that I’ve seen in an Orioles uniform and maybe as well as anyone in baseball right now (perhaps even recent memory) but you can’t preserve something if you have no chance at it. 101 over everyone’s head brings in another run I believe (I think they had first and third in the Tucker AB). 
 

I’m sure there are reasons for the sequencing of pitchers (and pitches) and I didn’t mean to come off as openly bashing BH. He’s done an absolute superb job this year. Players have to make plays. It just seemed to me that using Baumann to start the fifth would have made more sense given that they had just put up a 5 spot and he was pitching well enough to continue. Letting Perez start the next inning or even letting Baker start the next inning made more sense to me than the way Perez, Baker, Tate were used. 
 

Felix narrowly escaped the 8th after throwing one to the backstop. Given his recent health concerns and history of being wild you HAVE to have someone ready to come in if he is ineffective. Yes, if he throws Tucker a couple of 100+mph pitches instead of the splitter I probably don’t start this thread. In truth though, I actually started it in the 8th inning and had to run the dogs outside. 
 

 

[Sports Guy]

The very well rested BP blew lead after lead, offense scores 10 runs and yet it’s the managers fault.  This is hilarious.  

Edited September 25, 2022 by Sports Guy

[Moose Milligan]

18 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Would have been my preference too and Palmer called it too BUT I'm also fine with the splitter. If you want to throw off their timing and show them another pitch, bury one in the dirt they have no chance of hitting. The splitter *in the zone* on 0-2 was the problem. They did the same thing on Vazquez (0-2, fouled off splitter and slider), Alvarez (0-2 splitter), and Tucker (1+2 splitter). Hopefully Holt talks to these guys and they learn something from it.

By the way, as good as our bullpen has been, I would spend some of our $100M+ of payroll space on a veteran reliever. 

 

 

 

I agree, bury one in the dirt.  I don't think he necessarily hung it, but it wasn't a sharp splitter.  IIRC, it was too high up in the zone and rather flat.  

But yeah, @Sports Guygets it, Palmer gets it, and as much as I love Palmer I want to vomit every time I hear him say "...speeds the bat head up."  ...I mean, Tucker wasn't handling the fastball at all.  The whole situation screamed that he couldn't get around on it or even make solid contact.  So why would you give him something 11 mph slower?  Make him beat your best stuff, the stuff he's showing that he can't handle it.  Bautista didn't have great command of practically anything last night, so if he's going to miss with something it should have it to be 100 mph gas somewhere near the zone rather than a flat-ish splitter that doesn't bite hard.  

You bring up good points that they did the same thing on Vazquez and Alvarez, however Alvarez is a top 10 hitter in the game.  He's probably 3rd in the MVP voting in a race where the two other guys are putting up historic, unbelievable seasons.  

Tucker, while a good hitter, isn't in the same class as Alvarez.  

18 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

How about the best team in the AL finally got to our pitching?

I don't think Hyde did anything different than many other situations this season. This time the Astros just got hits.

Hyde brought short relievers in the middle of the game when he should have had Tate go for 2, maybe 3 if he's efficient  to bridge to the back of the bullpen.  

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

They were going to the splitter because he couldn’t command the fastball. They were pitching scared. Got to trust your stuff. Pitchers have off-nights all the time and obviously no one is perfect but when a guy is two days late on your fastball, even if he knows it’s coming, you have to try to go outside the zone and make him chase. They couldn’t do that because going anywhere away from the mitt might have resulted in another wild pitch. 
 

Adley digs, blocks, saves the ball as well as any catcher that I’ve seen in an Orioles uniform and maybe as well as anyone in baseball right now (perhaps even recent memory) but you can’t preserve something if you have no chance at it. 101 over everyone’s head brings in another run I believe (I think they had first and third in the Tucker AB). 
 

I’m sure there are reasons for the sequencing of pitchers (and pitches) and I didn’t mean to come off as openly bashing BH. He’s done an absolute superb job this year. Players have to make plays. It just seemed to me that using Baumann to start the fifth would have made more sense given that they had just put up a 5 spot and he was pitching well enough to continue. Letting Perez start the next inning or even letting Baker start the next inning made more sense to me than the way Perez, Baker, Tate were used. 
 

Felix narrowly escaped the 8th after throwing one to the backstop. Given his recent health concerns and history of being wild you HAVE to have someone ready to come in if he is ineffective. Yes, if he throws Tucker a couple of 100+mph pitches instead of the splitter I probably don’t start this thread. In truth though, I actually started it in the 8th inning and had to run the dogs outside. 
 

 

He couldn't command anything last night.  

Again, I'd rather have him miss somewhere with 100 MPH to someone who's swings are screaming I CAN'T HANDLE THIS VELOCITY rather than run the risk of hanging a splitter and giving Tucker the chance to hit something at a velocity that anyone in the MLB can handle.

Fine, if you want to make him chase, throw a shoulder high fastball.  Throw one in the dirt.  Set up outside so if he misses the corner of the plate, hopefully it runs outside.  I understand the concept of not having to have it in the zone when Tucker's behind in the count but the battle is 75% won when you realize Tucker can't catch up and another fastball, even if it misses the target, stands a better chance of putting him away or inducing weak contact rather than something at 89 MPH.  I'll take 100, 101 all day every day, ANYWHERE, especially when the rest of his stuff isn't sharp.  

That's the thing, 100, 101 doesn't have to be sharp or precisely located to be effective.  That splitter had to be precise on a night where precision wasn't there for Bautista.

[mrbig1]

Our bullpen hasn't worked in a while. They just weren't sharp as usual. WE need a shutdown closer. Maybe we'll find one in FA.

[MurphDogg]

2 minutes ago, mrbig1 said:

Our bullpen hasn't worked in a while. They just weren't sharp as usual. WE need a shutdown closer. Maybe we'll find one in FA.

Yikes.

[RZNJ]

If Bautista executes the splittter no one’s talking about it. He threw some good ones and struck Tucker on a good splitter the previous AB.  He was very inconsistent with the splitter last night.  I always think they call for the splitter too much but who can argue when batters have a .059 batting average against it (did I hear Palmer right).  
 

My biggest complaint with strategy is this.  Once Tucker ties the game up you still have one more out to go.  I would rather have Felix Bautista on a bad night than JAKE REED on any night.  Granted, the Gurriel single was a bleeder but I would rather go down with my best reliever than the last guy in the bullpen who has shown me nothing besides a quirky delivery.  Bautista is not available for today either way.  I know they are trying to protect him.  But he couldn’t go one more batter?  Really?  Jake Reed?   Really?  It felt like a Ubaldo Jimenez moment.  Really.

[RZNJ]

7 minutes ago, mrbig1 said:

Our bullpen hasn't worked in a while. They just weren't sharp as usual. WE need a shutdown closer. Maybe we'll find one in FA.

You’re either joking or just made one of the dumbest all time posts in Oriole history. Which is it?

[Jammer7]

9 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

Akin, yes, Hall, no.  I don't trust him enough right now.   I think Hall, at the moment, is a mop up guy.  

I can see the blame for Hyde but I think it's a bit over the top.  I also think it's natural for an autopsy after a game like that and it's also natural for people want to look for one person to blame.

IMO, it's not all on Hyde.  Hays missing that cutoff man was terrible.  Now, we'll never know if Mateo would have nailed Alvarez at the plate but I liked his chances.  Mateo has a great arm and Alvarez isn't a burner.  Even if the throw was a bit off target, I think there'd have been plenty of time for Rutschman to recover and make a tag.

Bautista going to the split that wasn't working for practically his entire appearance when he had two strikes on Tucker was unforgivable.  I'm not sure who called that pitch but it was a terrible idea, Tucker was having trouble handling 100 mph heat, a well placed fastball at 100 or 101 gets him swinging. 

Like I said, there's a lot of blame to go around.  I don't think Hyde should have pulled Baumann at that particular instant and I don't know why he went to short relievers first.  

That said, there were some guys that didn't execute on things they've been executing on all year.  It sucks, but it happens.

 

Agree with you, Moose. Particularly the part about pitch selection to Tucker. It was likely a call by Adley, bad call there. Tucker has a hole up and in, and a hundo there gets him.

Ah well, tough loss to the best team in the AL. The pen was not sharp after three “off days,” basically. The pen is tired overall. I did not like extending Bautista from the 8th, and I think it best to keep him as a one inning guy. 

[Aristotelian]

51 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

If Bautista executes the splittter no one’s talking about it. He threw some good ones and struck Tucker on a good splitter the previous AB.  He was very inconsistent with the splitter last night.  I always think they call for the splitter too much but who can argue when batters have a .059 batting average against it (did I hear Palmer right).  
 

My biggest complaint with strategy is this.  Once Tucker ties the game up you still have one more out to go.  I would rather have Felix Bautista on a bad night than JAKE REED on any night.  Granted, the Gurriel single was a bleeder but I would rather go down with my best reliever than the last guy in the bullpen who has shown me nothing besides a quirky delivery.  Bautista is not available for today either way.  I know they are trying to protect him.  But he couldn’t go one more batter?  Really?  Jake Reed?   Really?  It felt like a Ubaldo Jimenez moment.  Really.

And yet Reed did absolutely fine. Just gave up a weak ground ball that got through the big hole in the shift. Reed was .00001% of the problems in this game.