TT: Hyde's bullpen management is going to sink this team unless he changes

[Gofannon]

It feels like an ineffective April for Cionel Perez and an ineffective May for Brian Baker have increased usage for other relievers to bail them out, whether it's Cano, Coulombe or Bautista.  Hopefully Givens is able to step into a more consistent late inning role.

I looked back at our 1997 roster, and we had a solid bullpen that carried us through.  Guys like Orosco and Benitez operated as bridges to Randy Myers, pitching in 71 games but keeping their innings down (73.1 for Benitez, 50.1 for Orosco).  Arthur Rhodes filled the role Tony is talking about.  He only pitched in 53 games but threw 95.1 innings and won 10 games for us.  Guys like Terry Matthews and Alan Mills were less reliable but were placed in some medium to high leverage situations when the main guys needed a night off. 

It's hard to believe we have a team with 8 relievers on it and we are in constant fear of burning them out.  I know the game has changed dramatically, but it seems totally avoidable.

[Aristotelian]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The numbers I gave disagrees with that take. I understand giving them the benefit of the doubt as you do most of the time, but we're already seeing chinks in the bullpen with Baker, Coulombe, and Baumann at one point with over use.

The Orioles relievers have pitched in the 2nd most games in the MLB. That's do to quick hooks and matchup playing that Hyde likes to do as well as his aversion to using a reliever for 2 or especially 3 innings at a time. The numbers don't lie so it's not a made up narrative.

No, I'm not saying the quick hook thing is made up, I'm saying Cano and Bautista overuse is kind of a separate issue. Those guys' usage is based on situation and we have had a disproportionate share of close game-lead situations. 

As far as being #2 in games, that could have other explanations. For what it's worth our bullpen has pitched above average total innings (#10 MLB) as well as games. The number of reliever-games could be as much a function of poor starter performance as quick hooks on the relievers.

Again, the six guys with 23+ games could be more on Elias making less use of the shuttle, which would be on Elias, not Hyde. Or it could be due to concentrating use of the top arms while burying the bottom guys (which I think has also happened, for example Voth, the bulk guy, has fewer innings than our top 3). That would be Hyde's fault but is somewhat different than removing guys prematurely. 

One specific point, regarding Akin, I would push back or question what you mean by "misuse". He has major career splits so using him more like a LOOGYish matchup guy is intended to play to his strengths. He has a 150 point career OPS split and a 300 point split last year (.445 vs .782)! It's not that Hyde is intending for him to be a bulk guy and then giving him a quick hook, this is an intentional strategy to maximize Akin's contribution. He would be much more valuable as a .445 LOOGY guy than a .763 bulk guy. 

The real problem here is that Voth is really the only effective bulk guy. It's at least partly roster construction which is on Elias as well as Hyde. 

[Frobby]

36 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I get that, but sometimes guys will give up some runs and settle down. Hyde seems to pull them the second they give up a few hits or a run. Sometimes guys settle down. I've seen several times this year where the bulk reliever gives up a run and gets yanked instead of letting him work through it a bit. Then it's game on for everyone. 

Yes, I agree with this.   But I am interested in your opinion about whether Hyde was too quick to pull Baker last night.  I'm guessing he went into the 7th hoping Baker would pitch that entire inning.   Instead, Baker walked the 8th hitter and allowed a 2-strike single to the 9th hitter on a pitch that wasn't well located.   Would you have left Baker in there?   He may not be the best example, but he's the most recent decision regarding pulling a reliever at the first sign of trouble.

I'll be honest, I was very unhappy with Baker at that moment and was glad to see Hyde giving him the hook.  But some of Baker's problems may stem from the fact that he's been used so often.  So chicken, meet egg.

[Aristotelian]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, I agree with this.   But I am interested in your opinion about whether Hyde was too quick to pull Baker last night.  I'm guessing he went into the 7th hoping Baker would pitch that entire inning.   Instead, Baker walked the 8th hitter and allowed a 2-strike single to the 9th hitter on a pitch that wasn't well located.   Would you have left Baker in there?   He may not be the best example, but he's the most recent decision regarding pulling a reliever at the first sign of trouble.

I'll be honest, I was very unhappy with Baker at that moment and was glad to see Hyde giving him the hook.  But some of Baker's problems may stem from the fact that he's been used so often.  So chicken, meet egg.

Or how about the one where Mullins hit the late HR vs PIT to go from up 1 to up 4. Hyde brings in Voth to rest Bautista, but Voth failed to record an out and brought the tying run to the plate, so Hyde brings in Bautista. Was that a quick hook? He failed to rest Bautista but I was glad he got Voth out of there as Voth did not appear to be in any shape to get three outs and if it got any worse that only puts more pressure on Bautista. 

[AnythingO's]

5 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Or how about the one where Mullins hit the late HR vs PIT to go from up 1 to up 4. Hyde brings in Voth to rest Bautista, but Voth failed to record an out and brought the tying run to the plate, so Hyde brings in Bautista. Was that a quick hook? He failed to rest Bautista but I was glad he got Voth out of there as Voth did not appear to be in any shape to get three outs and if it got any worse that only puts more pressure on Bautista. 

Or how about the 2nd game in ATL on Saturday, 8th inning, up by 1, but neither Bautista nor Cano were available because Hyde, pre-game, decided to save both for Sunday. Both had pitched Thursday, Bautista for 30+ pitches but he hadn't pitched in 4 days prior to that. Cano for 12 pitches I believe. Game in hand, don't use either of your best because of Hyde decision ahead of time. That's on Hyde, not the Sig-bot. The man treats everyone like a 1-ining pitcher and has no patience for his long men. Voth shouldn't be there because he takes too long to get going. He should start or be traded, that's on ME, but Hyde IMHO misuses Voth.

[baltfan]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

It's funny because Buck was the exact opposite then Hyde when it came to his starters. He definitely would keep them out there too long too often, especially when the numbers told him the starter was terrible the 3rd time through an order or in the 7th inning. 

Definitely was.   It was under the auspices of them having to learn to pitch deep in games.  Except the guys that he tried to extend were usually guys that were never going to be those types when it counted. 
 

He left Chen in too long all of the time.  

Edited May 31, 2023 by baltfan

[baltfan]

I guess the use of Akin and Voth today answers some questions about yesterday. 

[SilverRocket]

Part of the issue with the last two days is on roster management. Could we not have brought up Bruce Zimmerman for a spot start, with Cole Irvin handling the next turn in the rotation? I can see using the bullpen more aggressively if we have a frequent up-and-down system, but Gillaspie and Vespi haven't been moving too much, and we certainly can't afford a bullpen day like today.

[banks703]

These guys are toast either way. The Guardians are garbage and they're getting boat raced again today because they don't have enough pitching. 

 

It was fun while it lasted but they just aren't going to be able to compete unless they get help on the mound. 

 

I know I know sky is falling, overreaction, yadda yadda. I wrote it then; the skull-dragging by the Rangers took something out of them. Then they lose Ced. They're headed in the wrong direction in a bad way. 

[Sports Guy]

Givens has been a total bust of a signing so far.  Hopefully he can turn it around soon.

[banks703]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Givens has been a total bust of a signing so far.  Hopefully he can turn it around soon.

Agreed. I was thinking to myself "I'm so glad they brought him back to be the second worst reliever on their ML roster."

 

It looks like something is off with him. Maybe they DL him again and let him do another rehab assignment. They need guys who can give them some reasonable length. 

[waroriole]

This was a prescient thread. 

[Chelsea_Phil]

I love that word ‘prescient’

[waroriole]

51 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Agreed. I was thinking to myself "I'm so glad they brought him back to be the second worst reliever on their ML roster."

 

It looks like something is off with him. Maybe they DL him again and let him do another rehab assignment. They need guys who can give them some reasonable length. 

They have those guys. Hyde pitches them one inning at a time. If that. 

[bpilktree]

I still believe a lot is driven by data and number of pitches.  The problem like today has been guys coming in and not getting many outs while throwing a lot of pitches.  Today Akin went just 1 inning but threw 25 pitches they probably had him with about 30 pitches available today, so with how many pitches he threw he could only give you 1 inning.  Voth same type thing with probably around 60 pitches which he used 58 for 2 1/3 innings. Perez 22 pitches and 2/3 of inning.  Givens 15 pitches 0 innings.  It seems they have Voth who they can go 50 pitches or 60 today as he was rested.  Akin 25-30 pitches an appearance, Baumann about 20-30 pitches an appearance and the rest of the guys around 20 pitches an appearance.   You can’t have guys throwing 20+ pitches and getting you just 1 or 2 outs.