Jorge in Center

[baltfan]

My concern with him in CF is he runs into an infielder due to inexperience on a flare into the outfield

[Alasdaire]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

.750 isn't bad.  It's not great...but it's not awful.  That is way better than anything that Mateo is bringing to the batter's box right now.  Frazier has shown that he can occasionally get into one and hit it out of the park. 

Here's where I think you went wrong with your argument about Mateo off the bench vs. Frazier; when I hear "off the bench" (and I don't think I'm alone here) I automatically think pinch hitting.  And if that's the case, I do not want Mateo pinch hitting over anyone currently on the squad.  Unless (and even then, this isn't 100%) he's got some amazing numbers against a certain pitcher in 20 at bats or something.  You can't argue for Mateo hitting over anyone else on the roster and expect to be taken seriously.

That makes sense. To be clear, I don't think even Mateo's mother could make a case for him at the plate, so I'm certainly not suggesting that he be kept on the roster to pinch hit/platoon. You wouldn't want him taking ABs in October under any circumstances, whereas I suppose you could send Frazier up there and cross your fingers that he hits another home run in a timely moment.

My view is that neither should be getting at bats in the playoffs. If you assume that, then Mateo's skillset has more utility than Frazier's because you can use Jorge situationally to pinch run, man SS, and possibly bunt. Those are niche skills, but I fail to see what Frazier brings to the table at all. The .750 OPS against righties? Is that enough to platoon him in the playoffs over Westburg/Urias and risk his defense for multiple innings? How many guys are you pulling in the 8th inning of an elimination game against a fresh set-up man to pinch hit Frazier?

I think I saw @Frobby make a good point in another thread about how rotating Frazier/Westburg/Urias keeps them all fresh. That's honestly the best argument I've seen for keeping Frazier around. But it still doesn't mean I want to see him in big games.

Also I think it's worth remembering that the development/tryout period of the young guys still matters. If we were below .500 right now, it would be all that mattered. Of course the reality is we're in a pennant race, but as I see it, Westburg outperforms Frazier right now/has a higher ceiling on top of playing Westburg being better for his development and seeing what we have before Norby/Ortiz are brought up.

Quote

But you also can't argue for Mateo's defense anymore.  He's just not been good, he's not near what he was last year.  Sure, when it comes to range he's got better range than Frazier, I won't argue otherwise.  

If you've been watching the games over the past few weeks, you've seen Mateo make some pretty bad errors.  Errors that I don't think he would have made last year.  It looks like he needs to be out there every day and get constant playing time if he's going to be any kind of asset with the glove but due to his noodle for a bat that's not a reality.  

So we're left with the speed and that's nice.  But if he can't hit, he's not getting on base.  He's certainly not a threat to draw a walk.  

Then it really comes down to him being used as a pinch runner.  Is there room on a postseason roster for a guy who's a speed demon pinch runner?  I don't know, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the makeup of a postseason roster.  

I will say there isn't a guy on the team that I'd want pinch running over Mateo.  He can probably score from first depending on where the ball is hit, he can definitely score from 2nd.  He's a threat to steal for sure.  But are you really going to carry him on the postseason roster because he might be able to steal a base?  There's some value there I suppose but again, it depends on what you're looking for in the postseason.

You're right that Mateo has made a handful of errors recently. But he has also made a few great plays. Shortstop is a very demanding position with a ton of opportunities to look good and bad. He's not at the level he was, but he's also not a liability there. I will say that if he stays on the roster and continues making those mistakes down the stretch, he is a liability, but I don't think we're there yet.

All of this aside, if Elias insists on making Joey Ortiz get as many AAA at bats as Westburg did (~700), we're not seeing Ortiz this year. Even if they did call Joey up, has Hyde seen enough of him to trust him at the most important position in the field in the playoffs? In which case Mateo is the only guy who can play shortstop other than Gunnar. So this whole conversation about Mateo is probably moot if they've made the decision that Joey is staying in Norfolk for the rest of the year.

[Bahama O's Fan]

I know that if we get into a tie game in the playoffs, I would love to see Mateo going out there to second to be the "ghost runner" and watch the opposing defense and pitcher tense up worrying about him running. 

[Sports Guy]

8 hours ago, Chavez Ravine said:

This is not a perfect comp, but the Dodgers kept Hanser Alberto all last year primarily because he was an awesome guy and kept everyone happy…well plus he pitched ten games for them. But then they happily left him off the post season roster in favor of the “dynamic rookie” Miguel Vargas. 

The Os don’t lack for chemistry, good guys or anything like that. 

[Etch]

Nothing like a .200 hitting center fielder

[Jammer7]

Some posters should be careful to not break their arms patting themselves on the back.

Seriously, the argument to not put Mateo in this position much earlier was the fact that he wasn’t just a good SS, he was the BEST SS in MLB according to Bill James and the Fielding Bible people. And to put anyone else there then was, by definition, weakening the defense. He has proven that he is no longer that guy NOW, but we weren’t there yet in April, May or June.

It should be noted that Gunnar was not nearly the SS then that he is now. Westburg has further changed the scenario with his growth and play. The situation has evolved, and things do change. This is the reason they wanted the players to compete for their positions. It has a way of sorting itself out.

As far as Jorge playing CF, and a super UT role…NOW, definitely worth a shot to use his speed. There are things behind the scenes we have no idea about. The front office has their reasons for keeping him beyond just his speed, at least I suspect so. 

[Jagwar]

1 hour ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

I know that if we get into a tie game in the playoffs, I would love to see Mateo going out there to second to be the "ghost runner" and watch the opposing defense and pitcher tense up worrying about him running. 

Isn't the "ghost runner" always the player who made the last out in the previous inning?

[AdamK]

Couldn't watch the game... How did he do?

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Isn't the "ghost runner" always the player who made the last out in the previous inning?

The thing is, you are going to keep Mateo on the roster just in case you need him to pinch run for the ghost runner if a game goes into extra innings.

 

[Morgan423]

This is what I've wanted for months, regarding Mateo.  The value of having a guy who isn't a front line starter, but can give off days to three or four different guys a week is HUGE when you're in a pennant race and have to play hard until the very end.

Yes, he's a gaping hole in our batting lineup no matter what position he's playing, but we can afford to have one of those per game and still have a productive offense.  And you can get a bonus out of batting him ninth and linking him with other speed at the front of the lineup when he does get on (like when Mullins comes back upcoming). 

This is a big brain move for the team, provided we can get him playing reliable defence in the outfield.

 

[Bahama O's Fan]

15 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Isn't the "ghost runner" always the player who made the last out in the previous inning?

Yes, but he can pinch run for any of them. 

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

Yes, but he can pinch run for any of them. 

Kinda of?

Even if the O's are at home pinch running Mateo isn't an I win button.  You have to be prepared to continue playing.  Are you going to pinch run for Adley?  Gunnar?

[Can_of_corn]

13 minutes ago, Morgan423 said:

This is what I've wanted for months, regarding Mateo.  The value of having a guy who isn't a front line starter, but can give off days to three or four different guys a week is HUGE when you're in a pennant race and have to play hard until the very end.

Yes, he's a gaping hole in our batting lineup no matter what position he's playing, but we can afford to have one of those per game and still have a productive offense.  And you can get a bonus out of batting him ninth and linking him with other speed at the front of the lineup when he does get on (like when Mullins comes back upcoming). 

This is a big brain move for the team, provided we can get him playing reliable defence in the outfield.

 

The main job of any hitter is to not make outs.

Mateo has a OBP of 260.  His career OBP is 268.

 

[Jagwar]

12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Kinda of?

Even if the O's are at home pinch running Mateo isn't an I win button.  You have to be prepared to continue playing.  Are you going to pinch run for Adley?  Gunnar?

Beat me to it. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Beat me to it. 

I don't get the mindset of using a roster spot in such a way that the entire team is weakened 98% of the time just in case a 2% edge case comes up in which that move might prove helpful.

I can see it now, the stars align, the O's are at home, tied game in the 10, Mateo pinch runs for Frazier, he gets ready to steal third...and the leadoff hitter hits a dong.