Can We Talk About Next Year Now?

[Bemorewins]

26 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

I hope the Red Sox/Yankees/Blue Jays spend a lot of money in FA. That means they'll be wasting a lot of money because there's nothing to be had, really.

Ohtani can and will be had by someone (hopefully the Mets) and he will make a huge difference with the bat alone.

It is a falacy to believe that FA can't help a team, look at the Rangers. Look at the moves that they made in the offseason and trade deadline and look at the ones that we made. Tell me that what they did didn't help them and what we did (or failed to do) didn't hurt us.

[Bemorewins]

25 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

As bright as the future appears to be, we still have Angelos to deal with.

He is the thing that can ruin this and he definitely may do that. That’s my concern moving forward.

AGREED ONE MILLION PERCENT. Nothing really matters if he doesn't help instead of hinder Elias.

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

AGREED ONE MILLION PERCENT. Nothing really matters if he doesn't help instead of hinder Elias.

He hasn’t hindered Elias so far. We’ll see where the payroll goes over the next 5 years, but we pretty much know that a top 10 payroll isn’t in the cards and the team’s success is largely going to depend on having a great farm system, great coaching and making smart acquisitions, not just trying to throw money at problems.  I certainly believe the team can succeed that way, with a balanced approach.   

[OriolesMagic83]

13 hours ago, bpilktree said:

They won’t do much and people will complain the entire off season.  The biggest moves will be moving veteran guys of big league roster.  I expect some one like Hector Neris and maybe bring Gipson back.  

I think this is something we can all agree on.

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

He hasn’t hindered Elias so far. We’ll see where the payroll goes over the next 5 years, but we pretty much know that a top 10 payroll isn’t in the cards and the team’s success is largely going to depend on having a great farm system, great coaching and making smart acquisitions, not just trying to throw money at problems.  I certainly believe the team can succeed that way, with a balanced approach.   

He has absolutely hindered Elias. 

[Moose Milligan]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He has absolutely hindered Elias. 

Where's the proof?  Like, hard evidence.  Not your opinion.

I get it, I don't like him either.  But I'm also tired of the pearl clutching in regards to the fear that he might do something to ruin the team, drive Elias out, etc.  Yeah, he might.  But until he actually does, there's not much to talk about when it comes to him, other than his semi-regular PR gaffes.

[dystopia]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Where's the proof?  Like, hard evidence.  Not your opinion.

I get it, I don't like him either.  But I'm also tired of the pearl clutching in regards to the fear that he might do something to ruin the team, drive Elias out, etc.  Yeah, he might.  But until he actually does, there's not much to talk about when it comes to him, other than his semi-regular PR gaffes.

He’s been a tightwad. That will hamper any GM. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Where's the proof?  Like, hard evidence.  Not your opinion.

I get it, I don't like him either.  But I'm also tired of the pearl clutching in regards to the fear that he might do something to ruin the team, drive Elias out, etc.  Yeah, he might.  But until he actually does, there's not much to talk about when it comes to him, other than his semi-regular PR gaffes.

Well, years ago when the Giants and Angels made a trade that basically saw the Giants buy a top 10 angels prospect, Elias was quoted as saying (and im paraphrasing) that he would like to do that but that’s not something ownership wants to do.

We also know that Elias wanted to add a pitcher this year and was willing to give a multi year deal but obviously couldn’t spend enough to get it done.

We don’t know if Elias has explored extensions but we know the team he came from did and we know JA’s thoughts on extensions.

As I have said, Elias isn’t going to be one who wants to spend a lot in FA. I’m guessing he feels the same way the Astros and Braves do and they are all right about it. However, you need to do some things and spend some money and I have zero doubt, based on things that have been said and done, that Elias had been hindered in some way and not able to do “what he wants” with the ML roster.

[Bemorewins]

29 minutes ago, Frobby said:

He hasn’t hindered Elias so far. We’ll see where the payroll goes over the next 5 years, but we pretty much know that a top 10 payroll isn’t in the cards and the team’s success is largely going to depend on having a great farm system, great coaching and making smart acquisitions, not just trying to throw money at problems.  I certainly believe the team can succeed that way, with a balanced approach.   

First let me say, that I disagree with that opinion about Angelos. I do not believe that Elias wanted come out of last offseason with only Gibson, Irvin, O'Hearn and Frazier. Nor do i think he wanted to come out of the deadline with only Fujunama and Flaherty. They are cost prohibitive moves, not actual needle moving in any way.

As to your statement about "succeeding" I guess that depends on your definition of success. IMO great depth from a super deep farm can help you succeed over the long haul of the regular season. But when you are up against the best in the short series of October, depth matters much less. Front end talent matters more then. IMO if the goal is to "succeed" in the postseason (as it should be at this point), we are going to have to find more needle movers beyond in-house talent IMO.

The approach that we have taken has a ceiling. Other teams like TEX for example have good young talent, but also supplement it with necessary additions from outside of the org. Same goes for HOU/LAD/ATL. Those are the big boys that we are going to have to defeat if we want to win it all.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Well, years ago when the Giants and Angels made a trade that basically saw the Giants buy a top 10 angels prospect, Elias was quoted as saying (and im paraphrasing) that he would like to do that but that’s not something ownership wants to do.

We also know that Elias wanted to add a pitcher this year and was willing to give a multi year deal but obviously couldn’t spend enough to get it done.

We don’t know if Elias has explored extensions but we know the team he came from did and we know JA’s thoughts on extensions.

As I have said, Elias isn’t going to be one who wants to spend a lot in FA. I’m guessing he feels the same way the Astros and Braves do and they are all right about it. However, you need to do some things and spend some money and I have zero doubt, based on things that have been said and done, that Elias had been hindered in some way and not able to do “what he wants” with the ML roster.

Okay.

Do we know for a fact that he wasn't allowed to spend enough for a multi-year deal, or is it possible that Elias didn't think a multi-year deal for any of the starters on the market weren't worth what they were asking?  Like, I wouldn't have wanted Gibson for a multi-year deal at a lower annual salary, for example.  

We do know JA's thoughts on extensions.  That doesn't mean extensions won't get done.  But, like you, I have my doubts.

So the evidence that JA is being a tightwad aren't really that concrete, despite what we'd all like to believe.  Trust me, I don't like him either, but before @Tony-OH labels me a JA  apologist, I just want to deal with facts.  There's a quote from Giants/Angels trade a few years ago where Elias said that ownership wasn't interested in doing a deal like that (yet ownership has spent practically every dollar of draft pools (cue @Can_of_corn) and spent money in the Dominican programs for guys like Basallo) but if we're being honest -and you're an honest guy, SG- that's not much to go on.

I agree that Elias isn't going to spend a lot in free agency based off where he's come from.  I would not be surprised if John Angelos (and again, this is speculation) wanted to know Elias' thoughts on spending in free agency during the interview process and made the hire partially based on that.  That is to say that I believe these two are in simpatico when it comes to their thoughts and philosophies on spending in free agency.

All in all, what you've listed isn't hard evidence.  A quote here, a quote there.  To borrow a phrase, it's not about what you know, it's about what you can prove.  

So while I think (just like you do!) that John Angelos doesn't want to spend big bucks in free agency and I don't think Elias does either, I'll wait until there's a hard hitting investigative article that comes out that'll confirm all this before crucifying one or the other or both.

 

 

[Bemorewins]

22 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Where's the proof?  Like, hard evidence.  Not your opinion.

I get it, I don't like him either.  But I'm also tired of the pearl clutching in regards to the fear that he might do something to ruin the team, drive Elias out, etc.  Yeah, he might.  But until he actually does, there's not much to talk about when it comes to him, other than his semi-regular PR gaffes.

That's fair. There is no hard evidence/proof. But something prevented us from making impact moves in the offseason and at the deadline which inevitably came back to bite. It was either Angelos or Elias or both. Either way that's going to need to change.

[OriolesMagic83]

10 hours ago, EddeeEddee said:

Go get Yoshinobu Yamamoto and Blake Snell -- seriously!  I know I'm probably dreaming, but what more proof does a 101 win team need, after flaming out in the post season, that top pitchers are needed to get this team a World Series?

We're pretty sure we got a lot of great bats coming up from the minors.  Pitching?  Hopefully but not quite as sure.  I say go as big as possible in trying to get one to two top free agent starters and a free agent reliever -- or get them via a trade.  If not Yamamoto or Snell then get an Eduardo Rodriguez, Jordan Montgomery or Aaron Nola or...  Pitching, pitching, pitching! 

You never know who could regress or get hurt.

Zero reason the O's/Elias/Angelos shouldn't go get one of the top free agent starters or trade for a top starter.  Imo,  GrayRod and Means aren't sure things next year.  GrayRod was really good for a little over 2 months.  He could regress and revert to old habits over the winter.  I hope he doesn't, but it's not a good plan to assume that GrayRod will be the guy we saw in the 2nd half.  That would make as much sense as assuming he'll be the guy we saw early in the season before he got sent down.  He'll probably be somewhere in between, probably a #3 starter w/ #2 upside.  My concern with Means is whether he will be up to a full season workload.  Angelos, you already are saying you are going to raise ticket prices plus have a big windfall from being in the playoffs.  Spend some of that money on the team. 

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

That's fair. There is no hard evidence/proof. But something prevented us from making impact moves in the offseason and at the deadline which inevitably came back to bite. It was either Angelos or Elias or both. Either way that's going to need to change.

I don't think Elias is ready to give up prospects yet.  For whatever reason.

 

 

[clapdiddy]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

That's fair. There is no hard evidence/proof. But something prevented us from making impact moves in the offseason and at the deadline which inevitably came back to bite. It was either Angelos or Elias or both. Either way that's going to need to change.

I'm not so sure about the offseason side of this.  The 2022 season could have been a blip on the radar.   Did anyone here see the Orioles winning 100 games before this season started?   

I will acknowledge that they could have done more at the trade deadline.   Getting a guy like Chapman turned out to be a big deal for Texas.   We got Fuji and Flaherty who were both mostly disappointing.   

I do believe some big moves need to be made.   We've yet to see if Elias and/or ownership of capable of such moves.

[Low Country Bird]

Very curious to see what we do with the OF next year.  Would think that Kjerstad and Cowser are going to be in the mix to play every day (assuming they have just decent spring trainings) and I assume Mullins is back in CF to start, so if that's the case, what do we do with Hays (or Santander or O'Hearn)? I also assume Hicks will be gone.