Jackson Holliday 2024

[Tony-OH]

I know there are a lot of people, that rightfully so, are saying to give him time, and I agree to a certain extent. But the one thing that has to be recognized is how badly Holliday is being dominated by major league pitching right now.

He's whiffing way too much. He's not having competitive at bats. When he does make contact he's hitting the ball way too much on the ground, which was something I mentioned about him as he was coming up through the minors. 

Now it's been 8 games, and I have no concerns that he won't one day be an amazing player, but he's getting into historic levels of futility to start off a major league career.

It's clear, what worked for him at the minor league level is not working for him against major league pitching. Whether it's the leg kick or the fact that his head is all messed up at the plate currently, it's definitely an issue. 

If he was controlling the strike zone and making good swing decisions then ok, but at some point he's got to produce up here or he needs to be sent back down before he hits those historic numbers.

I still think the target date is the May 1st area, if he's not making more contact and starting to make more solid contact, then I think he needs to go back to AAA. This isn't a rushed judgement, but rather you can't keep running a young kid or really any player out there for too long when they are not having competitive PAs. 

This is the big leagues, and while it's fine to take some lumps, just like the many players mentioned in this thread who started off poorly, but those lumps can't continue to be absolute domination. 

[MDK02]

28 minutes ago, interloper said:

Lol at these comments man. 

You can’t possibly still believe that his ABs are still “awesome” can you? You’re just in denial of his struggles, if so. Not to mention, basically every fielding play he makes becomes a close play at first. You can laugh at the comments but why don’t you tell the board why he’s looked so good in your eyes. 

[Safelykept]

1 hour ago, gtman55 said:

He just doesn't seem ready to me. The only thing to do is send him down. It's a huge leap from AAA to the majors and it's showing. And not just at bat where he looks like a single A guy trying to hit off Cy Young. He is really shaky in the field and even his throws seem slow.

I think keeping him up here is a mistake for the team and for Jackson at this point. Let him go back to Norfolk and have him work on his fielding at second and fine tune his swing and his approach at bat. I feel bad for the kid but even worse if he continues to flail (and fail) at bat after at bat up here.

 

Had a throw last night about the 3rd or 4th inning on a routine grounder right to him and looked like he just lobbed it ti first, barely beating the runner

[Safelykept]

13 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I know there are a lot of people, that rightfully so, are saying to give him time, and I agree to a certain extent. But the one thing that has to be recognized is how badly Holliday is being dominated by major league pitching right now.

He's whiffing way too much. He's not having competitive at bats. When he does make contact he's hitting the ball way too much on the ground, which was something I mentioned about him as he was coming up through the minors. 

Now it's been 8 games, and I have no concerns that he won't one day be an amazing player, but he's getting into historic levels of futility to start off a major league career.

It's clear, what worked for him at the minor league level is not working for him against major league pitching. Whether it's the leg kick or the fact that his head is all messed up at the plate currently, it's definitely an issue. 

If he was controlling the strike zone and making good swing decisions then ok, but at some point he's got to produce up here or he needs to be sent back down before he hits those historic numbers.

I still think the target date is the May 1st area, if he's not making more contact and starting to make more solid contact, then I think he needs to go back to AAA. This isn't a rushed judgement, but rather you can't keep running a young kid or really any player out there for too long when they are not having competitive PAs. 

This is the big leagues, and while it's fine to take some lumps, just like the many players mentioned in this thread who started off poorly, but those lumps can't continue to be absolute domination. 

Cant possibly be too much longer, this is starting to cause as much anxiety as John Means.

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, Safelykept said:

Had a throw last night about the 3rd or 4th inning on a routine grounder right to him and looked like he just lobbed it ti first, barely beating the runner

He does that a lot, even in the minors he's done that. I'm not really sure why because it looks bad, but so far he hasn't mistimed it with his lobs. OAA loves him for some reason though. I have to admit the eye test is not good, but OAA loves his range. 

[Moose Milligan]

Still not worried. He’ll figure it out. 

[Tony-OH]

9 minutes ago, MDK02 said:

You can’t possibly still believe that his ABs are still “awesome” can you? You’re just in denial of his struggles, if so. Not to mention, basically every fielding play he makes becomes a close play at first. You can laugh at the comments but why don’t you tell the board why he’s looked so good in your eyes. 

There are always going to be "pollyanna" fans that seem to think if you show any concern, even when you have the statistics to prove the concerns, will just laugh it off. 

I haven't seen anyone say he's a bust or that he'll never hit in the majors, but it's been 8 games of absolutely domination. Even Cowser last year made some good contact at times and walked some during his terrible performance. 

Now Cal Ripken took his lumps in his short debut at the end of 1981 slashing .128/.150/.128/.278 in 39 PAs similar to Holliday though he "only" struck out 9 times in those 39 PAs. 

I have little doubt Holliday will figure things out, and it very well may start coming soon, but once he gets on that 50 PA range, the Orioles need to make an assessment of what good for the team this year and whether Holliday may need a reset back in AAA. 

Many good players have needed to go back to the minors after learning what didn't work in the big leagues. Who knows, maybe the Orioles knew some things wouldn't work but needed Holliday to fail before he would make some changes? I don't know honestly and I'm not a hitting instructor. I just know that I'd feel better if he were driving the ball more often and just whiffing a lot less. That whiff rate is unsustainable.

 

[interloper]

17 minutes ago, MDK02 said:

You can’t possibly still believe that his ABs are still “awesome” can you? You’re just in denial of his struggles, if so. Not to mention, basically every fielding play he makes becomes a close play at first. You can laugh at the comments but why don’t you tell the board why he’s looked so good in your eyes. 

No I don't but it's just funny watching people who criticized the decision to start him in AAA to now wanting to send him down after less than 30 ABs.

[interloper]

8 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

There are always going to be "pollyanna" fans that seem to think if you show any concern, even when you have the statistics to prove the concerns, will just laugh it off. 

I haven't seen anyone say he's a bust or that he'll never hit in the majors, but it's been 8 games of absolutely domination. Even Cowser last year made some good contact at times and walked some during his terrible performance. 

Now Cal Ripken took his lumps in his short debut at the end of 1981 slashing .128/.150/.128/.278 in 39 PAs similar to Holliday though he "only" struck out 9 times in those 39 PAs. 

I have little doubt Holliday will figure things out, and it very well may start coming soon, but once he gets on that 50 PA range, the Orioles need to make an assessment of what good for the team this year and whether Holliday may need a reset back in AAA. 

Many good players have needed to go back to the minors after learning what didn't work in the big leagues. Who knows, maybe the Orioles knew some things wouldn't work but needed Holliday to fail before he would make some changes? I don't know honestly and I'm not a hitting instructor. I just know that I'd feel better if he were driving the ball more often and just whiffing a lot less. That whiff rate is unsustainable.

 

I think we agree fully here, I'm not sure why you feel the need to call me a Pollyanna. It's been 27 AB. If at 50 he still looks like this then sure send him down. I was merely laughing at the full 180 some fans are pulling in here.

And it seems to only happen after a loss, as if we would have won that game with Urias or Mateo at 2B or something.

And you will see me in other threads criticizing players or lack of moves to support the pen and things like that. This narrative that I'm some constant Pollyanna is just false. I acknowledge the kid looks pretty bad. He's not losing us games though, and IMO hasn't met the threshold just yet for being sent down.

Edited April 20 by interloper

[Frobby]

It pains me to see Holliday struggle, but I have to admit there’s a part of me that just wants to dredge up every post where someone essentially called Elias an idiot for not having Holliday on the Opening Day roster or accused him of being solely motivated by manipulating service time.   What do you think now?

I wrote a couple of days ago that I thought Holliday would get two more weeks to show some signs of adjusting.   But now I’m thinking it might be more like a week (end of the road trip).   He’s really pressing terribly right now.   

[Gofannon]

Sounds like people think he's unlikely to start against Ragans today.  Are the O's at the point where they are platooning him?  If so, the rest of the road trip isn't going to tell us much, facing 3 out of 5 lefty starters.  At this point, if he isn't starting, he isn't coming into the game, since you would never pinch hit him or have him as a defensive replacement.

If we are backing off on the lefty-lefty matchups, I could see Tony's May 1st date as the earliest he'd get to 50 at bats.

[DirtyBird]

29 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

He does that a lot, even in the minors he's done that. I'm not really sure why because it looks bad, but so far he hasn't mistimed it with his lobs. OAA loves him for some reason though. I have to admit the eye test is not good, but OAA loves his range. 

Mentioned on the broadcast last night that the OAA is also high due to the speed of the runners on his plays.

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, Gofannon said:

Sounds like people think he's unlikely to start against Ragans today.  Are the O's at the point where they are platooning him?  If so, the rest of the road trip isn't going to tell us much, facing 3 out of 5 lefty starters.  At this point, if he isn't starting, he isn't coming into the game, since you would never pinch hit him or have him as a defensive replacement.

If we are backing off on the lefty-lefty matchups, I could see Tony's May 1st date as the earliest he'd get to 50 at bats.

He's absolutely at the point of platooning, sure, if only to help give him the best chance of getting on track.

[capyy]

75% of the baseball world owes mike elias an apology for accusing him of service time manipulation.

 

I can't tell you how many podcasts i listened to where they were acting all high and mighty about this evil GM and it's obvious he should be in the majors etc etc

[Safelykept]

34 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

There are always going to be "pollyanna" fans that seem to think if you show any concern, even when you have the statistics to prove the concerns, will just laugh it off. 

I haven't seen anyone say he's a bust or that he'll never hit in the majors, but it's been 8 games of absolutely domination. Even Cowser last year made some good contact at times and walked some during his terrible performance. 

Now Cal Ripken took his lumps in his short debut at the end of 1981 slashing .128/.150/.128/.278 in 39 PAs similar to Holliday though he "only" struck out 9 times in those 39 PAs. 

I have little doubt Holliday will figure things out, and it very well may start coming soon, but once he gets on that 50 PA range, the Orioles need to make an assessment of what good for the team this year and whether Holliday may need a reset back in AAA. 

Many good players have needed to go back to the minors after learning what didn't work in the big leagues. Who knows, maybe the Orioles knew some things wouldn't work but needed Holliday to fail before he would make some changes? I don't know honestly and I'm not a hitting instructor. I just know that I'd feel better if he were driving the ball more often and just whiffing a lot less. That whiff rate is unsustainable.

 

And we dont know what Cal looked in those 8 games or his defense for that matter, fact is Holliday at this point is completely over matched, especially his ability to cover the outside part of the plate.