Dinner with Flanny

[hoosiers]

Witchy, someone has some remedial accounting classes to take. :002_ssmile:

Liabilities do not show up on the income statement - where one would find the Operating Income definition used by Forbes. FWIW, Forbes' operating income does not include depreciation because it is a non-cash expense (the asset being depreciated has already been paid for), but accounting principles and the reporting of public companies require depreciation to be a reduction in operating income.

Liabilities are unpaid obligations - what you owe - as in "salaries payable" or debt - and they show up on your Balance Sheet - not the income statement - so there appears to be some disconnect there.

Anyway, I agree with those applauding our FO for doing such a thing.

[scrubs83]

I had no idea Flanagan was doing this dinner. I think it's a great thing to do.

butttttttttt...

As a fan listening to the commentary from the one's who were lucky to attend, all I can say is that I got very little out of this dinner.

I'm sure those of you who attended had a wonderful time, but a little goodwill doesn't account for 8 losing seasons and a fanbase so deeply broken that crowds under 20K are becoming the norm at OPACY.

Being an Orioles fan is a losing battle these days. As a fan you hate to hear excuses and to tell you the truth, that's all we've heard for several years from our front office. Us die-hard fans, who actually pay attention to a message board aren't the ones the front office should be worried about. Be worried about the casual ones who pay attention to the win column and the negative press.

Orioles fans are disappearing and as long as Angelos is around, it won't ever get better. It's just the plain truth to the matter.

[Mackus]

If it's really true that both players and FO people actually read stuff here, then I think that we should raise our standards of behavior for our own selves. Criticism and second-guessing is fine. But IMHO there's *way* too much of a tendency around here to talk about the Orioles players and staff as if they are either enemies or dogmeat. We're fans. We're supposed to second-guess, and we're supposed to want more. But when we're critical, we're supposed to act like the "Loyal Opposition". We're not supposed to act like a bunch of paranoids who think "they" either don't care or are out to get us.

This is the best post of this entire thread.

If I walked away from this dinner with anything, it was that the Flanagans and, in general, everybody in the organization, loves the Orioles just as much as we all do abd wants them to win. We all feel like we deserve better as die-hard fans of a team, but they feel that they should produce better as die-hard fans and integral members of that team. Flanagan constantly referred to the team as "we" and eventually so did everybody else at the dinner, which I think speaks volumes about his and our's love for the team.

I feel like in general over the past 3-4 years that I've been on this board I've been fairly respecatable to both our fellow posters and the team in general. Although I do know that I've had certain situations where I posted, lets just say, less than gentleman-like. But I'd be very surprised if, after this dinner, I make a post that is just blatantly disrespectful to a player, front office member, or owner.

That doesn't at all mean I won't be critical. There were many things that have gone on and will occur in the future that I think are probably bad decisions. Things that I personally disagree with and I'll never back away from explaining my position so long as I can support it with anything of relevance. However, my days of posting that "someone" sucks are probably over. I don't think I'll be calling any player or front office member "worthless" anymore. Just meeting anybody from the team and getting to know them and their backstory certainly is a eye-opener. Even players who I really wish weren't on the team, like Jeff Conine or Raul Chavez, I'm going to do my best to explain my opinions fairly and as respectfully as possible.

If anybody has gone to any of the "Hangout nights" at the stadium or anywhere, I bet they've experienced this same thing. Someone who you would have no qualms about calling an idiot on a message board, after talking to them at a game for 3 hours, you have a completely different image of them. Even if you disagree with them on things afterwards, your arguments always hold a much more respectful tone, and I think that this leads to better arguments.

We should all probably try a little bit harder to be a bit more respectful of the players and front office members. We certainly have every right to disagree with their moves or performances, but I definitely feel that some people go way too far and cross the line from fandom to fanaticism and just plain disrespect, which is unneccesary.

[RShack]

An imaginary, 100% fictional converation from last winter:

Konerko: "Yeah, Mike, I really like your offer. I can tell you're serious. I also like it whenever we play in Baltimore... plus I hear it's a good baseball town."

Flanagan: "Oh, yeah, it's a great baseball town... great fans, great tradition, great ballpark... the Orioles are part of the city's identity... when you're an Oriole, you're supposed to represent the area..."

Konerko: "Cool. Do you know of anyplace I can tune in to what the fans are like?"

Flanagan: "Sure... there's this message board on a site called 'Orioles Hangout'... there's always a bunch of people on there talking baseball..."

(A week later...)

Konerko: "Hey, Mike... listen, I'm sorry... but... I think I'm gonna stay in Chicago..."

Flanagan: "Oh, no, don't do that! We've got the best offer on the table. We want you in Baltimore *more* than anybody else wants you..."

Konerko: "Yeah, well... I know your offer is top-notch... and I understand what you're trying to build there... but I spent a couple days reading the OH site, and I gotta tell you... your fans hate you, hate the team, hate the owner, hate everything... they even want you to trade Tejada away... it's just not worth it to me... I don't want to walk into that kind of fan atmosphere... I'd rather stay here and do without the extra $5 million."

Flanagan: "I understand, but let's talk about this for a minute..."

Konerko: "Sorry, Mike, but I'd rather not... money is money, but baseball is what I love... and I just don't need that kind of crap. But I really do appreciate your offer, and I wish you the best of luck... and, hey, listen... I was talking to Conine the other day... he said he liked it there just fine... maybe you should give him a call..."

[olehippi]

An imaginary, 100% fictional converation from last winter:

Konerko: "Yeah, Mike, I really like your offer. I can tell you're serious. I also like it whenever we play in Baltimore... plus I hear it's a good baseball town."

Flanagan: "Oh, yeah, it's a great baseball town... great fans, great tradition, great ballpark... the Orioles are part of the city's identity... when you're an Oriole, you're supposed to represent the area..."

Konerko: "Cool. Do you know of anyplace I can tune in to what the fans are like?"

Flanagan: "Sure... there's this message board on a site called 'Orioles Hangout'... there's always a bunch of people on there talking baseball..."

(A week later...)

Konerko: "Hey, Mike... listen, I'm sorry... but... I think I'm gonna stay in Chicago..."

Flanagan: "Oh, no, don't do that! We've got the best offer on the table. We want you in Baltimore *more* than anybody else wants you..."

Konerko: "Yeah, well... I know your offer is top-notch... and I understand what you're trying to build there... but I spent a couple days reading the OH site, and I gotta tell you... your fans hate you, hate the team, hate the owner, hate everything... they even want you to trade Tejada away... it's just not worth it to me... I don't want to walk into that kind of fan atmosphere... I'd rather stay here and do without the extra $5 million."

Flanagan: "I understand, but let's talk about this for a minute..."

Konerko: "Sorry, Mike, but I'd rather not... money is money, but baseball is what I love... and I just don't need that kind of crap. But I really do appreciate your offer, and I wish you the best of luck... and, hey, listen... I was talking to Conine the other day... he said he liked it there just fine... maybe you should give him a call..."

Absolutely hilarious! I saved this one...:002_sbiggrin:

[Skywalker76]

Sounds like a very special evenning you guys had with Mr. and Mrs. Flanagan. Thanks for all those reports.

[Skywalker76]

Us die-hard fans, who actually pay attention to a message board aren't the ones the front office should be worried about. Be worried about the casual ones who pay attention to the win column and the negative press.

Orioles fans are disappearing and as long as Angelos is around, it won't ever get better. It's just the plain truth to the matter.

Everybody knows that once the O's start winning again most casual fans will come back. But isn't it nice that the FO is kind of rewarding us die-hard fans for sticking together with the O's during those hard time? I mean we deserve this kind of special treatment, not the casual fan who just watches when the O's are winning.

[osfan83]

An imaginary, 100% fictional converation from last winter:

Konerko: "Yeah, Mike, I really like your offer. I can tell you're serious. I also like it whenever we play in Baltimore... plus I hear it's a good baseball town."

Flanagan: "Oh, yeah, it's a great baseball town... great fans, great tradition, great ballpark... the Orioles are part of the city's identity... when you're an Oriole, you're supposed to represent the area..."

Konerko: "Cool. Do you know of anyplace I can tune in to what the fans are like?"

Flanagan: "Sure... there's this message board on a site called 'Orioles Hangout'... there's always a bunch of people on there talking baseball..."

(A week later...)

Konerko: "Hey, Mike... listen, I'm sorry... but... I think I'm gonna stay in Chicago..."

Flanagan: "Oh, no, don't do that! We've got the best offer on the table. We want you in Baltimore *more* than anybody else wants you..."

Konerko: "Yeah, well... I know your offer is top-notch... and I understand what you're trying to build there... but I spent a couple days reading the OH site, and I gotta tell you... your fans hate you, hate the team, hate the owner, hate everything... they even want you to trade Tejada away... it's just not worth it to me... I don't want to walk into that kind of fan atmosphere... I'd rather stay here and do without the extra $5 million."

Flanagan: "I understand, but let's talk about this for a minute..."

Konerko: "Sorry, Mike, but I'd rather not... money is money, but baseball is what I love... and I just don't need that kind of crap. But I really do appreciate your offer, and I wish you the best of luck... and, hey, listen... I was talking to Conine the other day... he said he liked it there just fine... maybe you should give him a call..."

WOW, is all I can say. Every team in every city in every sport has fans that go a bit overboard with there personal critisisms of the team and management. Hell in some parks fans come out of the stands and beat up umpires! In your fictional conversation, if Konerko didn't want to play for a team with critical fans, then he'd better get out of the sports business.

And another thought, I think the dinner was neat, but, isn't it a little strange that the GM would have dinner with customers, then ask them not to discuss what was said with other customers? It's not like these were close personal freinds, or other O's employees he was speaking with. It's like a Wal Mart manager grabbing 20 customers at random in the store, telling them about something that's happening behind the scenes at the store, then hoping those random strangers don't tell other random strangers.

[peter snees]

WOW, is all I can say. Every team in every city in every sport has fans that go a bit overboard with there personal critisisms of the team and management. Hell in some parks fans come out of the stands and beat up umpires! In your fictional conversation, if Konerko didn't want to play for a team with critical fans, then he'd better get out of the sports business.

Fair point. Orioles fans are actually pretty time in comparison with some.

And another thought, I think the dinner was neat, but, isn't it a little strange that the GM would have dinner with customers, then ask them not to discuss what was said with other customers?

I think you're off base here. Because they write things that end up being published on this board, Flanagan treated the OH members as de facto journalists, making some comments off the record. It happens in virtually every conversation ever held between a journalist and a source.

Yes, this was a PR exercise, just as Bush's recent off-the-record chats with reporters in the White House were a PR exercise. It's often quite useful for both the journalists and sources to get to know each other. Overall, I am really glad to hear that this has taken place.

[Ohfan67]

An imaginary, 100% fictional converation from last winter:

Konerko: "Yeah, Mike, I really like your offer. I can tell you're serious. I also like it whenever we play in Baltimore... plus I hear it's a good baseball town."

Flanagan: "Oh, yeah, it's a great baseball town... great fans, great tradition, great ballpark... the Orioles are part of the city's identity... when you're an Oriole, you're supposed to represent the area..."

Konerko: "Cool. Do you know of anyplace I can tune in to what the fans are like?"

Flanagan: "Sure... there's this message board on a site called 'Orioles Hangout'... there's always a bunch of people on there talking baseball..."

(A week later...)

Konerko: "Hey, Mike... listen, I'm sorry... but... I think I'm gonna stay in Chicago..."

Flanagan: "Oh, no, don't do that! We've got the best offer on the table. We want you in Baltimore *more* than anybody else wants you..."

Konerko: "Yeah, well... I know your offer is top-notch... and I understand what you're trying to build there... but I spent a couple days reading the OH site, and I gotta tell you... your fans hate you, hate the team, hate the owner, hate everything... they even want you to trade Tejada away... it's just not worth it to me... I don't want to walk into that kind of fan atmosphere... I'd rather stay here and do without the extra $5 million."

Flanagan: "I understand, but let's talk about this for a minute..."

Konerko: "Sorry, Mike, but I'd rather not... money is money, but baseball is what I love... and I just don't need that kind of crap. But I really do appreciate your offer, and I wish you the best of luck... and, hey, listen... I was talking to Conine the other day... he said he liked it there just fine... maybe you should give him a call..."

Very funny post! And very insightful...I've been wondering for a long time why so many players want to play in New York and I think you've figured it out...MLB players seek unabashed admiration and love from the fans! And of course New York fans never criticize ML players, managers, general managers, and owners, so that's obviously the place to play. Darn! Just think of all those free agents the O's could have signed if OH posters would just stop complaining about eight years of losing seasons, questionable signings like Mr. Glass, Palmeiro II, Millar and Conine, etc.:002_ssmile:

[osfan83]

I think you're off base here. Because they write things that end up being published on this board, Flanagan treated the OH members as de facto journalists, making some comments off the record. It happens in virtually every conversation ever held between a journalist and a source.

QUOTE]

I think the posters that were invited all constribute valuable opinions and I enjoy reading their posts. That being said, they are not journalists! If they are, that makes everyone that owns a computer a journalist. Flanny was not meeting with a couple of beat writters that travel with the team and become a defacto part of the O's family. There is no "off the record" when talking with random fans.

[Ohfan67]

I read some of these comments prior to going to the game tonight, and have been stewing on them for a couple hours. So, if I end up ranting -- that's why.

#1 Regarding the alleged boo-hooing and whining about the demands of the front office gig, please go back and read my notes post. Please pay particular attention to whom I was interacting with most of the evening. If you all think Mike Flanagan got everyone together so he could whine about his work schedule, well.......I just don't know what to say. Also, as Tony-OH surmised that "work schedule" topic of conversation was in direct response to speculation on the message boards -- including this one -- about the FO work ethic (or lack thereof for some folks).

Witchy

Hi Witchy,

Let me say again that my comments questioning the substance of what was communicated were not directed at your or other folks who were able to take advantage of this fun opportunity. I also thank you very much for posting your thoughts/memories about the dinner. It was a neat thing, I certainly would have gone if invited, etc. Even if Flannagan wasn't GM it would still be a blast to sit down with a great former O for several hours. Again, I thank you very much for sharing what you can with us and I think it was a fun gesture on the part of Flanny.

Regarding the work ethic/whining thing, I accidently touched a nerve of several people regarding my lack of pity for the long hours baseball executives work. I was not disrespecting Flanny and others and not questioning their work ethic. I just have relatively little pity for people who knowingly and willingly choose to take demanding positions and then complain about the hours, effort, etc. It sounds like Mrs. Flannagan, not Flanny (right?), was discussing this with you and that's understandable. I apologize if my comments got the thread off track, that was certainly not my attention. I am, however, very, very skeptical of any and all "excuses" that are provided by the O's organization. Several of the things you were told sound like the usual smoke and mirrors and that's what my post was about. I think all Orioles fans have definitely earned the right to be skeptical, but of course we should do our best to be skeptical without trashing individuals, etc.

[ScottieBaseball]

If it's really true that both players and FO people actually read stuff here, then I think that we should raise our standards of behavior for our own selves. Criticism and second-guessing is fine. But IMHO there's *way* too much of a tendency around here to talk about the Orioles players and staff as if they are either enemies or dogmeat. We're fans. We're supposed to second-guess, and we're supposed to want more. But when we're critical, we're supposed to act like the "Loyal Opposition". We're not supposed to act like a bunch of paranoids who think "they" either don't care or are out to get us.

In defense of this board and its standards, I have to say that, compared to most other professional sports team-related message boards, this is a first-rate gig we've got going here. It's populated with a diverse group of individuals...from average Joes like me to journalists and sports radio personalities like Paul and John. That's not to say we're without our obligatory contingent of closed-minded malcontents who frequently toe the fine line between 'passionate' and 'offensive'. However, they're always dealt with appropriately and often serve as contrast to those of us who consistently take the high road.

The phrase (or some variation) "the proof is in winning" has been tossed around a lot here lately as justification for condemning this front office, its decisions, and transactions (or lack thereof) over the last few years. While the statement is true to an extent, only one team can win it every year. If we were consistently at or around .500, it would be great for awhile, but we'd eventually return to these same emotions, criticisms, etc.

It's also worth pointing out that feelings of success are relative. I know plenty of Yankees fans who feel like their team has been an absolute failure over the last few years because they haven't won a World Series. Some might say it's justified considering a lineup consisting of All-Star after All-Star. Here in Baltimore, though, we'd be happy with being involved in the pennant race come August!

When it comes to a subject that generates so much emotion (I'm sure we've ALL cried/been on the verge of tears over this team in our lives) compounded by what's perceived as prolonged failure, the line between 'criticism' and 'offensive insults' is easily blurred. I agree it's not right, but I believe the moderators here do a great job of handling it on the occasions in which we can't moderate ourselves. Pointing out that the very people (like Mike Flanagan) who've been criticized to the point of insult actually frequent this board should serve as validation for those of us who refrain from such things and justification for the reprimands and releases of those who don't.

[OrioleMagic]

Great thread... Thanks to all involved.

[Witchy_Chick]

1. FO invites a select few "diehard" fans to dinner.

2. Fans are impressed with the warmth and openess of their hosts.

3. FO explains their side of things on most things controversial.

4. FO asks fans not to reveal details which explains their side of things.

5. Most guests are so full they skip desert.

Conclusion:

FO wants select few diehard fans to go back to diehard masses and tell them all is ok and they didn't have the whole story before. They still can't have the whole story. Only eight people have the whole story and they've been sworn to secrecy.

For the gajillionth time, we were not sworn to secrecy. That phrase is something I truly regret using now -- as it has completely been blown out of proportion. Go back and look at my initial post where I used "sworn to secrecy." Notice that it was accompanied by one of these: I see precisely what Mrs. Flanagan means now when she stated that when one inadvertant/incorrect comment gets repeated often enough, it suddenly becomes true.

Oy vey.

There was one specific instance and one specific situation that was discussed where we were asked not to share the details. That's it. I don't know about anyone else in attendance, but I used my best judgement on what to share and what not to share. I feel that I can't share some things 'cause I don't truly understand them yet (i.e. the payroll/profitability stuff, the MASN setup). Once I have a firmer grasp on those issues, I will post what I know -- including my questions.

Suggestion to Tony-OH for next year's group: A humble suggestion!

Nothing against HO's list of guests. All intelligent and good posters. But how about this group for next year?

Sapper (Fly him in) - I want the ultimate cynic there. I'm sure he'll behave himself.

Sportsguy - If anyone can question player moves that were and were not made, this is the guy.

DrungoHazewood - Representing the Statguys. Can bombard Flanny with questions about platooning or lack there of and the supposed intention of going after players with good plate discipline and stressing that throughout the system.

???????? - I know we've got a few economics gurus around here. Pick one so he can politely quiz on why we can afford to offer Konerko a 5/65 deal but then can't deal for Walker because of 900K. Or maybe that's another one where we don't have the whole story and never will.

Not that I'm trying to usurp the idea of using a different group next year, but the pre-planning that went into this dinner was astounding. This has been in the works since January. We were supposed to go (initially) in January (IIRC). The dinner was imminent at one point, and had to be cancelled at the last minute because Flanagan had to fly out on business. The plans were put on indefinite hold due to Spring Training. At one point, I actually wondered if this would ever come to fruition. The local guys (SportsGuy, Drungo, and the accountant/economists) could probably be flexible in their schedules. Flying in Sapper from AZ -- probably not an option, unless someone wants to pay a buttload of money for a last minute flight. Sean is local -- he would be a comparable Sapper stand-in.

Also, I think some of you have an incorrect impression of how things were structured. On the drive to dinner, I wondered how our questions would be presented. I had a list of my questions with me. Would it be ok to whip out my list, ask Flanny, and take notes? Would we go around the table -- with each person getting to ask a question? Who knew? Once we got there, the setting/atmosphere was not conducive to doing that (taking notes like a reporter). The dinner was an informal thing and most of our questions sprung organically from the conversation. One instance of this "organic questioning" that I can think of off the top of my head was the question about the upcoming draft. One of The Sun guys was talking to Flanny about the draft. Flanny answered his question, and I followed up with mine ("Are we looking to draft some infield talent since we have very little in the minors?").

Hi Witchy,

Let me say again that my comments questioning the substance of what was communicated were not directed at your or other folks who were able to take advantage of this fun opportunity. I also thank you very much for posting your thoughts/memories about the dinner. It was a neat thing, I certainly would have gone if invited, etc. Even if Flannagan wasn't GM it would still be a blast to sit down with a great former O for several hours. Again, I thank you very much for sharing what you can with us and I think it was a fun gesture on the part of Flanny.

Regarding the work ethic/whining thing, I accidently touched a nerve of several people regarding my lack of pity for the long hours baseball executives work. I was not disrespecting Flanny and others and not questioning their work ethic. I just have relatively little pity for people who knowingly and willingly choose to take demanding positions and then complain about the hours, effort, etc. It sounds like Mrs. Flannagan, not Flanny (right?), was discussing this with you and that's understandable. I apologize if my comments got the thread off track, that was certainly not my attention.

Alright. Now that that is cleared up, I will say this about Mrs. Flanny -- she is feisty.

I am, however, very, very skeptical of any and all "excuses" that are provided by the O's organization. Several of the things you were told sound like the usual smoke and mirrors and that's what my post was about. I think all Orioles fans have definitely earned the right to be skeptical, but of course we should do our best to be skeptical without trashing individuals, etc.

I am skeptical as well -- which is why I'm going thru this paperwork with a fine-toothed comb. I'm also jotting down questions/contradictions along the way. Once I get thru it, I will post my findings. And you all can debate that to death too.

Witchy