Bud Norris 2015

[mdbdotcom]

What if we could have a truly magical season in which the only games we lost each time through the rotation were the ones started by Bud Norris?

That'd be great!

[SticksandStones]

The question I keep coming back to is what is Bud offering -- either in the bullpen or the rotation -- that someone else already on the 40-man can't? I can't come up with anything. Can anyone else honestly answer that question, especially considering that he probably wasn't (and isn't) coming back next year? If anyone wants to defend Bud (including Buck), you have to be willing to tell us exactly what he has to offer than nobody else on the roster does. Because I don't see it.

We have plenty of decent BP pitchers and obviously have two or three other decent SP options (Wilson, Gausman, and maybe Wright if he can get his head right) that are virtually a lock to be as "good" or better than Bud is right now.

Am I the only one that thinks that Bud could be an elite level bullpen arm? Throwing 5-7 innings he usually sits between 93-95 MPH with the fastball. Out of the bullpen I would imagine he could pump it up to the high 90's ala Tommy Hunter, but the difference is he will have a wipe out slider. He could be a valuable bullpen piece for this team moving forward IMO.

Who he replaces in the bullpen I'm not sure about, but I think he could have value there nonetheless.

[Can_of_corn]

Am I the only one that thinks that Bud could be an elite level bullpen arm? Throwing 5-7 innings he usually sits between 93-95 MPH with the fastball. Out of the bullpen I would imagine he could pump it up to the high 90's ala Tommy Hunter, but the difference is he will have a wipe out slider. He could be a valuable bullpen piece for this team moving forward IMO.

Who he replaces in the bullpen I'm not sure about, but I think he could have value there nonetheless.

He hasn't had a wipe out slider all year.

[weams]

That's one of the interesting things about Tilly's struggles Toronto - they actually don't throw tons of lefties at you (at least not in the heart of their order). Donaldson, Bautista, Encarnacion, Martin, Colabello, even Devon Travis. Seems righties are OPS'ing .942 off Tillman this year (compared with .762 for his career, which is actually higher than a career .724 against lefties.)

Would be interesting to see how those OPS splits are against righties OTHER than Toronto this year. Bet they'd be on par with his career numbers.

I was talking Bud in particular. He has no defense against left-handers. None.

[ReclaimTheCrown]

I was talking Bud in particular. He has no defense against left-handers. None.

Ah, gotcha. Agree.

[crissfan172]

I was talking Bud in particular. He has no defense against left-handers. None.

Cutters in, fastballs away. Unfortunately his command of either isn't good enough to be effective.

[ReclaimTheCrown]

Am I the only one that thinks that Bud could be an elite level bullpen arm? Throwing 5-7 innings he usually sits between 93-95 MPH with the fastball. Out of the bullpen I would imagine he could pump it up to the high 90's ala Tommy Hunter, but the difference is he will have a wipe out slider. He could be a valuable bullpen piece for this team moving forward IMO.

Who he replaces in the bullpen I'm not sure about, but I think he could have value there nonetheless.

I agree with you that it's worth a shot. Additionally, he wouldn't necessarily have to replace anyone in the bullpen, since we've been going short for a while (you'd call up Gausman to be your fifth starter, and Norris would effectively complete your bullpen as your seventh reliever).

I think it's better than getting rid of him at this point, unless you find an unexpectedly willing trade partner.

[webbrick2010]

Am I the only one that thinks that Bud could be an elite level bullpen arm? Throwing 5-7 innings he usually sits between 93-95 MPH with the fastball. Out of the bullpen I would imagine he could pump it up to the high 90's ala Tommy Hunter, but the difference is he will have a wipe out slider. He could be a valuable bullpen piece for this team moving forward IMO.

Who he replaces in the bullpen I'm not sure about, but I think he could have value there nonetheless.

Do you mean a wipe it out of the park slider?

I agree that Bud's future is in the bullpen whether with the O's or his next team. In the bullpen he may be successful as a one pitch high 90's FB pitcher. He basically has no secondary pitches.

[e16bball]

He hasn't had a wipe out slider all year.

True. We've got 55 innings and 11 starts to assure us of the demise of the wipeout slider he's had for the previous 900 innings and 150 starts.

Look, you're not getting any disagreement from me that Bud should be out of the rotation and Gausman should be in. Bud is lost and Gausman should get a full opportunity to run with the #5 job.

But you make room for Bud in the bullpen. There aren't many teams who know better than the Orioles what a failed starter can do when he transitions to relief work. Zach Britton, who happens to be one of the 5-6 best relievers in baseball at this point, was a substantially worse starter than Bud. Tommy Hunter, who has a 2.96 ERA in relief over the past 3 seasons, was a worse starter than Bud. Brian Matusz, who has a 3.32 ERA in relief over the past 3 seasons, was a substantially worse starter than Bud. Jim Johnson, who saved more games than any Oriole not named Gregg Olson, couldn't even get a shot as a starter. And if we end up making another run to the playoffs, we're going to have to go through a number of pitchers (Andrew Miller, Dellin Betances, Jake McGee, Koji Uehara, Wade Davis, Glen Perkins, etc.) who failed miserably as starters --- only to be reborn as utterly dominant relievers.

Bud sits 92-95mph as a starter. Based on what we've seen from other starters transitioning to relief work, there's no reason to think he couldn't at least sit more like 94-97mph in short stints. With what has been (until this season, as you noted) a nasty wipeout slider and a changeup that is at least useable. That's the profile of a dominant reliever.

Maybe using Bud out of the pen doesn't work out. But you don't just release 30-year-olds who have been generally league average starters for the past 5 years. Not without giving them a shot to see how their stuff plays up in relief. Not so that you can keep T.J. MacFarland and Chaz Roe in the ML bullpen.

In the ALCS last season, we got our teeth kicked in by a bullpen full of guys who could throw gas with starter-level secondary stuff. Bud is a guy who could be an absolute weapon in relief for us, much like Wade Davis has been for KC. You've got to give him a chance to find out if he can be.

[MeSoHardy]

Something has to give

[MeSoHardy]

The question I keep coming back to is what is Bud offering -- either in the bullpen or the rotation -- that someone else already on the 40-man can't? I can't come up with anything. Can anyone else honestly answer that question, especially considering that he probably wasn't (and isn't) coming back next year? If anyone wants to defend Bud (including Buck), you have to be willing to tell us exactly what he has to offer than nobody else on the roster does. Because I don't see it.

We have plenty of decent BP pitchers and obviously have two or three other decent SP options (Wilson, Gausman, and maybe Wright if he can get his head right) that are virtually a lock to be as "good" or better than Bud is right now.

Right now Brian Matusz is a lock to be as good of a starter as Bud Norris. Not that hard with Bud's current ERA

[Can_of_corn]

True. We've got 55 innings and 11 starts to assure us of the demise of the wipeout slider he's had for the previous 900 innings and 150 starts.

Look, you're not getting any disagreement from me that Bud should be out of the rotation and Gausman should be in. Bud is lost and Gausman should get a full opportunity to run with the #5 job.

But you make room for Bud in the bullpen. There aren't many teams who know better than the Orioles what a failed starter can do when he transitions to relief work. Zach Britton, who happens to be one of the 5-6 best relievers in baseball at this point, was a substantially worse starter than Bud. Tommy Hunter, who has a 2.96 ERA in relief over the past 3 seasons, was a worse starter than Bud. Brian Matusz, who has a 3.32 ERA in relief over the past 3 seasons, was a substantially worse starter than Bud. Jim Johnson, who saved more games than any Oriole not named Gregg Olson, couldn't even get a shot as a starter. And if we end up making another run to the playoffs, we're going to have to go through a number of pitchers (Andrew Miller, Dellin Betances, Jake McGee, Koji Uehara, Wade Davis, Glen Perkins, etc.) who failed miserably as starters --- only to be reborn as utterly dominant relievers.

Bud sits 92-95mph as a starter. Based on what we've seen from other starters transitioning to relief work, there's no reason to think he couldn't at least sit more like 94-97mph in short stints. With what has been (until this season, as you noted) a nasty wipeout slider and a changeup that is at least useable. That's the profile of a dominant reliever.

Maybe using Bud out of the pen doesn't work out. But you don't just release 30-year-olds who have been generally league average starters for the past 5 years. Not without giving them a shot to see how their stuff plays up in relief. Not so that you can keep T.J. MacFarland and Chaz Roe in the ML bullpen.

In the ALCS last season, we got our teeth kicked in by a bullpen full of guys who could throw gas with starter-level secondary stuff. Bud is a guy who could be an absolute weapon in relief for us, much like Wade Davis has been for KC. You've got to give him a chance to find out if he can be.

I'd be fine with transitioning Bud to the bullpen if there was any room in the bullpen for him. Dan built this team with very little flexibility and adding Parmalee and Reimold to the mix has just made the situation worse.

[Ruzious]

I think we could be approaching a decision point on Norris. I'm unsure how exactly our starting rotation will fall between now and the All Star break (ie do we need Norris to make another start), but I believe if we see, most importantly A) Gausman look strong on Thursday and B) Norris struggle in another start or two, the All Star break and off days we are afforded thereafter will be the opportunity to move Bud to the 'pen.

Many folks have speculated that he could be a very effective bullpen arm, and I think we may be able to take advantage of that. We've also been at 6 in the bullpen for the better part of a month, anyway, so that'll help us get squared away. I'm sure he won't be thrilled with it, but quite frankly, at this point, it's tough for him to argue that we haven't given him a fair shake at starting.

If Gausman pitches well and Bud struggles in his next start or two, I think we'll see the switch made.

I think that works well. If I were critical of anything that Buck has done, it's using Gausman as a reliever this season. He's too good a talent to mess with, and he should be in the rotation. A contending team can't continue giving chances to Norris, and the pen is where he belongs, imo.

[Crazysilver03]

Send him down to the minors.

If someone is dumb enough to claim Norris, let them have him, he's no longer our problem.

If he gets through waivers which I'm sure he would, we can bring him back up if we ever need him later this season or if he gets his act together in AAA.

Win win right?

He will reject the assignment and take his money and go. There is no minors for Bud.

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[Crazysilver03]

True. We've got 55 innings and 11 starts to assure us of the demise of the wipeout slider he's had for the previous 900 innings and 150 starts.

Look, you're not getting any disagreement from me that Bud should be out of the rotation and Gausman should be in. Bud is lost and Gausman should get a full opportunity to run with the #5 job.

But you make room for Bud in the bullpen. There aren't many teams who know better than the Orioles what a failed starter can do when he transitions to relief work. Zach Britton, who happens to be one of the 5-6 best relievers in baseball at this point, was a substantially worse starter than Bud. Tommy Hunter, who has a 2.96 ERA in relief over the past 3 seasons, was a worse starter than Bud. Brian Matusz, who has a 3.32 ERA in relief over the past 3 seasons, was a substantially worse starter than Bud. Jim Johnson, who saved more games than any Oriole not named Gregg Olson, couldn't even get a shot as a starter. And if we end up making another run to the playoffs, we're going to have to go through a number of pitchers (Andrew Miller, Dellin Betances, Jake McGee, Koji Uehara, Wade Davis, Glen Perkins, etc.) who failed miserably as starters --- only to be reborn as utterly dominant relievers.

Bud sits 92-95mph as a starter. Based on what we've seen from other starters transitioning to relief work, there's no reason to think he couldn't at least sit more like 94-97mph in short stints. With what has been (until this season, as you noted) a nasty wipeout slider and a changeup that is at least useable. That's the profile of a dominant reliever.

Maybe using Bud out of the pen doesn't work out. But you don't just release 30-year-olds who have been generally league average starters for the past 5 years. Not without giving them a shot to see how their stuff plays up in relief. Not so that you can keep T.J. MacFarland and Chaz Roe in the ML bullpen.

In the ALCS last season, we got our teeth kicked in by a bullpen full of guys who could throw gas with starter-level secondary stuff. Bud is a guy who could be an absolute weapon in relief for us, much like Wade Davis has been for KC. You've got to give him a chance to find out if he can be.

The key difference here is that He is a free agent after this year. He probably doesn't want to shift to the bullpen as it will cost him millions.

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