The New Cavalry?

[Bubble Buddy]

4 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

The original "Cavalry" has gotten a bad rap over the years in my most humble of opinions.   The Big 4 there really were Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta and Britton.  Those 4 produced:

Tillman - Above average starter on a contending Orioles team.  De facto ace of the staff that really had no true #1.

Matusz - Decent LOOGY, albeit for not a very long time.

Britton - One of the best relief pitchers in the game for several years.

Arrieta - CY award winner....just not with us.

Ultimately those 4 produced about as well as could reasonably be expected.  The only real negative is that none developed as a true shutdown ace for us.  Arrieta finding himself elsewhere really was the killer.

The original cavalry was all the rage. I remember Dave Trembley discussing them quite a bit when he was manager, even a couple years before they were well seasoned.  

I do think you can say they were a pretty productive group, albeit us only getting to benefit from 1 ML average starter from a group of 5-7 highly rated guys did hurt a bit. Britton becoming a near HOF reliever and Arrieta having that rididulous stretch with the Cubs redeemed their rep a bit. 

I still think it was a bit disappointing that Matusz flamed out after such a promising start (honestly thought he was going to be the best of all, #5 prospect in all of baseball in 2010), that Tillman had his up and down seasons, and that Arrieta didn't produce for us and didn't bring anything back.

I think it would be fair to say that Britton and Tillman mostly met expectation (unfortunate the way it ended for Tillman), while Arrieta and Matusz were pretty large busts from an Orioles perspective. 

Now that may be normal for a large group of pitching prospects. Some don't live up to the hype. Some do well and flame out. Some get injured.

Still think that group left some to be desired. Albeit they were much better than the hyped up starters from 5 years earlier (Riley, Ainsworth, etc.)

 

[Moose Milligan]

25 minutes ago, Bubble Buddy said:

I do think you can say they were a pretty productive group, albeit us only getting to benefit from 1 ML average starter from a group of 5-7 highly rated guys did hurt a bit. Britton becoming a near HOF reliever and Arrieta having that rididulous stretch with the Cubs redeemed their rep a bit. 

 

This is where I am.  @glenn__davis isn't necessarily wrong, it's just that you've highlighted the outcome that seems to matter the most, IMO, as we were all thinking we were going to have 4 or 5 stud starters that would propel us to the top of the AL East for years.  And that one average ML starter (Tillman) wasn't ours to begin with.  Doesn't take any shine away from what Tillman accomplished but he wasn't completely developed here, further adding to the frustration of the Orioles ineptitude for drafting and developing pitching.

Britton was fantastic but we were all hoping he'd have turned out to be a good starter.  Captain Red Face was a bust and as happy I was for Arrieta to go on and find greatness, the fact that it didn't happen in Baltimore matters.  

 

 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

I do remember the Bergesen hype, and that made me shake me head then and now. I was never a believer. 

What Bergesen hype is that?    Going into the 2009 season, there was no hype at all about Bergesen.   If I recall, Tony had him ranked something like 18th in our MiL system.    But then he had an excellent spring training, got sent to AAA but was called up quickly when one of the veterans got hurt, and went on to have an excellent season.    I think it would be fair to say that Bergesen’s performance far exceeded any hype about him in 2009.   Unfortunately his season was cut short when a line drive broke his leg, and then he hurt his shoulder filming a TV promo for the team over the winter, and he never regained his 2009 karma.    It’s definitely possible that Bergesen would have regressed to the mean even if he’d never been hurt, but we’ll never know.     

[Enjoy Terror]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

What Bergesen hype is that? 

There was Bergesen hype. 

Anecdotally, I went with the Boy Scouts out to the Philmont scout Ranch back in 1998 to backpack through the Rockies for two weeks. All meals were dense-caloried, dehydrated, out of a bag, and boiled in water to be consumed-- every meal for two weeks.

Every meal except one. At a brief layover at a small trading post, we were offered pan fried Spam for lunch... it may be the single most satisfying meal I've ever eaten. Real meat, can you believe it?

Well, Brad Bergesen was the Spam treat of 2009 and Dave Trembley was going to save the franchise.

[El Gordo]

When they're pitching well for Bowie then I;ll start to get excited.

[Jammer7]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

What Bergesen hype is that?    Going into the 2009 season, there was no hype at all about Bergesen.   If I recall, Tony had him ranked something like 18th in our MiL system.    But then he had an excellent spring training, got sent to AAA but was called up quickly when one of the veterans got hurt, and went on to have an excellent season.    I think it would be fair to say that Bergesen’s performance far exceeded any hype about him in 2009.   Unfortunately his season was cut short when a line drive broke his leg, and then he hurt his shoulder filming a TV promo for the team over the winter, and he never regained his 2009 karma.    It’s definitely possible that Bergesen would have regressed to the mean even if he’d never been hurt, but we’ll never know.     

He was successful for a short amount of time. There were posters here who thought he was to be a rotation staple for years to come, thus me shaking my head. Regardless of the injury, he was about to fall to earth. The league was beginning to adjust. Short term hype. Fact is, the stuff was mediocre at best. 

[CheeryO]

11 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

The original "Cavalry" has gotten a bad rap over the years in my most humble of opinions.   The Big 4 there really were Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta and Britton.  Those 4 produced:

Tillman - Above average starter on a contending Orioles team.  De facto ace of the staff that really had no true #1.

Matusz - Decent LOOGY, albeit for not a very long time.

Britton - One of the best relief pitchers in the game for several years.

Arrieta - CY award winner....just not with us.

Ultimately those 4 produced about as well as could reasonably be expected.  The only real negative is that none developed as a true shutdown ace for us.  Arrieta finding himself elsewhere really was the killer.

I think David Hernandez was the other guy that some considered to be part of the "cavalry".  He's not remembered as much because he worked mainly out of the bullpen and got traded.  He's been a pretty decent if not great reliever since.

[CheeryO]

7 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

This is where I am.  @glenn__davis isn't necessarily wrong, it's just that you've highlighted the outcome that seems to matter the most, IMO, as we were all thinking we were going to have 4 or 5 stud starters that would propel us to the top of the AL East for years.  And that one average ML starter (Tillman) wasn't ours to begin with.  Doesn't take any shine away from what Tillman accomplished but he wasn't completely developed here, further adding to the frustration of the Orioles ineptitude for drafting and developing pitching.

Britton was fantastic but we were all hoping he'd have turned out to be a good starter.  Captain Red Face was a bust and as happy I was for Arrieta to go on and find greatness, the fact that it didn't happen in Baltimore matters.  

 

 

First of all, the years Tillman was good he was certainly better than average.  His achilles heel was he threw too many pitches to get the job done, but he had three seasons where he had a WAR of better than 2.5 and two seasons where he had a WAR above 3.5.  Second, as another poster already mentioned, Tillman discovered and developed the pitch that put him over the top while in Baltimore with the help of Baltimore coaches.  So he did develop while in Baltimore.

I'm no expert but my feeling is that it's not a failure to develop pitching being the big problem with the O's; but the failure to go get good young pitchers in general -- be it through the draft, through trades or in the international market.  Tillman was one of the good ones they did get through a trade, Wei Yin Chen was one of the very rare good ones they got on the international market, while Arrieta is the best example of a Baltimore draftee who "developed" very well -- just after he left Baltimore.

[tntoriole]

13 hours ago, interloper said:

1. DL Hall
2. Grayson Rodriguez
3. Keegan Akin
4. Zac Lowther
5. Dean Kremer
6. Sedlock/Harvey?

The relative success of these guys in the minors this year has me hopeful for a sort of new SP "cavalry", a term oft-mentioned during the 00's dark ages. Maybe we actually hit on a couple guys this time? 

We have always had minor league pitching prospects...they just always look best when they are still in the minors

[Cumberbundy]

13 hours ago, interloper said:

1. DL Hall
2. Grayson Rodriguez
3. Keegan Akin
4. Zac Lowther
5. Dean Kremer
6. Sedlock/Harvey?

The relative success of these guys in the minors this year has me hopeful for a sort of new SP "cavalry", a term oft-mentioned during the 00's dark ages. Maybe we actually hit on a couple guys this time? 

 

Bowie could be unstoppable in a couple years.

[Legend_Of_Joey]

5 minutes ago, Cy Bundy said:

 

Bowie could be unstoppable in a couple years.

Bowie would be unstoppable this season if their hitters weren't so awful, before McCoy got promoted.

[Cumberbundy]

4 minutes ago, Legend_Of_Joey said:

Bowie would be unstoppable this season if their hitters weren't so awful, before McCoy got promoted.

Need a significant Mountcastle slump to salvage the season in Bowie. 

[sevastras]

9 hours ago, atomic said:

Matusz didn't produce anything. And he was rated the #5 prospect in baseball right before he joined the big club. 

 Matusz was a really good pitcher that got screwed up and then couldn’t get out of his own head. If he came up with the Rays, Braves, Giants, practically any other team, he may have been a left handed Zack Greinke. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

6 minutes ago, sevastras said:

 Matusz was a really good pitcher that got screwed up and then couldn’t get out of his own head. If he came up with the Rays, Braves, Giants, practically any other team, he may have been a left handed Zack Greinke. 

August 2010 to the end of the season it looked like Matusz was going to make the leap. And then the 2011 season it all fell apart. I blame Buck and the pitching coaches for that one.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

He was successful for a short amount of time. There were posters here who thought he was to be a rotation staple for years to come, thus me shaking my head. Regardless of the injury, he was about to fall to earth. The league was beginning to adjust. Short term hype. Fact is, the stuff was mediocre at best. 

The league was beginning to adjust?    ERA by month: 

5.59

4.78

2.23 

2.76

In his final game, he allowed 1 run in 7 innings.    

I think it’s entirely possible he would have fallen to earth later that year, but the league certainly hadn’t adjusted to him.   If anything, it was the other way around.