John Means 2019 vs. Justin Verlander 2006 ROY Season

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, GuidoSarducci said:

We judge players relative to the era they played in.  Back then shortstops weren't expected to be sluggers.  Look at Mark Belanger.  Yes I realize were notable exceptions like Ernie Banks.   But look at who was the shortstop for the Yankees from 1957 to 1965. Tony Kubek with a career OPS of .667 (he did have a couple years slightly over .700 and one year of .789 but only in 45 games)

Its why Cal was a better shortstop than Nomar Garciaparra

Belanger was an outlier even in the context of his era.

As for Ripken and Garciaparra?

Ripken had 20 seasons with 83 or more games.

Garciaparra had eight.

 

[LookinUp]

Luis Apracio's career OPS+ was 82.

Richie Martin's is 45.

Belanger's career OPS+ is 68. 

 

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Haha. I don't think John Means is going to have a Verlander career either. 

I thought the previous Keuchel comp was sufficiently optimistic!

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, GuidoSarducci said:

We judge players relative to the era they played in.  Back then shortstops weren't expected to be sluggers.  Look at Mark Belanger.  Yes I realize were notable exceptions like Ernie Banks.   But look at who was the shortstop for the Yankees from 1957 to 1965. Tony Kubek with a career OPS of .667 (he did have a couple years slightly over .700 and one year of .789 but only in 45 games)

Its why Cal was a better shortstop than Nomar Garciaparra

Also, Cal played more than twice as many games a Nomar.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, LookinUp said:

Luis Apracio's career OPS+ was 82.

Richie Martin's is 45.

Belanger's career OPS+ is 68. 

 

Bob Lemon, HOF pitcher, has a slightly higher OPS+ than Luis Aparicio and Rabbit Maranville, HOF SSs.  Aparicio and Maranville are the floor of HOF hitters with OPS+es of 82.

If Richie Martin also is an epic fielder and plus baserunner until he's about 44 he, too, could one day go to Cooperstown.  If the bat gets a little better.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Bob Lemon, HOF pitcher, has a slightly higher OPS+ than Luis Aparicio and Rabbit Maranville, HOF SSs.  Aparicio and Maranville are the floor of HOF hitters with OPS+es of 82.

If Richie Martin also is an epic fielder and plus baserunner until he's about 44 he, too, could one day go to Cooperstown.  If the bat gets a little better.

And he's made the right friends on the veteran's committee. 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Belanger was an outlier even in the context of his era.

Not as much as you might think from Belanger discussions.  He's only 9th-worst hitter of the 1960-90 era (min 1000 games played).  Hal Lanier, Bobby Wine, and Dal Maxvill were quite a bit worse.  Alfredo Griffin retired with the same OPS+ as Belanger (68) in almost exactly the same number of plate apperances.  Tim Foli and Johnny LeMaster were worse.  Larry Bowa got almost 10,000 plate appearances and was only slightly better (71).

Edit: When I set the upper limit of 1990 I lopped off the last few years of Alfredo Griffin's career.  He actually finished a point behind Belanger on OPS+.

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

And he's made the right friends on the veteran's committee. 

I actually think Aparicio is a reasonable HOF selection by his playing record.  He's about two wins behind Willie Stargell and Hank Greenberg, even with Joe Medwick, ahead of Willie Keeler and George Sisler and Jimmy Collins.   There are 159ish HOF position players and Aparicio is 95th by rWAR, and he anchored the defense on a number of really good teams.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I actually think Aparicio is a reasonable HOF selection by his playing record.  He's about two wins behind Willie Stargell and Hank Greenberg, even with Joe Medwick, ahead of Willie Keeler and George Sisler and Jimmy Collins.   There are 159ish HOF position players and Aparicio is 95th by rWAR, and he anchored the defense on a number of really good teams.

Martin would need more help.

[DrungoHazewood]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Martin would need more help.

At current pace he'd need an executive order.  Or maybe a Constitutional amendment.

[Can_of_corn]

21 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

At current pace he'd need an executive order.  Or maybe a Constitutional amendment.

Would be funny if Baines was a trial balloon and they keep electing less qualified candidates.  I wonder how bad it would get before they changed the voting procedures again?

[TommyPickles]

10 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Dear Dr. Killjoy,

The OP was just discussing John Means' rookie of the year consideration worthy season. I don't think he was suggesting they will have similar careers or are similar pitchers.

Signed,

Fun Police

 

Thank you.  Exactly this.

[GuidoSarducci]

10 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Belanger was an outlier even in the context of his era.

As for Ripken and Garciaparra?

Ripken had 20 seasons with 83 or more games.

Garciaparra had eight.

 

 

8 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Also, Cal played more than twice as many games a Nomar.

 

If you look at OPS it looks like Nomar was a better player for a brief period in the late 90s early 2000s.  But actually Cal's best 3 seasons were better than any of Nomar's top 3 seasons if you go by into WAR

Cal:  year OPS WAR

1983 .883 8.2

1984 .886 10.0

1991 .940 11.5

Nomar:   Year OPS WAR

1998 .946 7.1

2000 1.033  7.4

2002 .880 6.8

The OPS+ numbers are pretty even, which factors into Nomar playing in the roid era.  For Cal it is 144/146/162 vs 140/156/121 for Nomar.   

I suppose Nomar also had less WAR/season because he didn't play the full 162 like Cal did (he played 143/143/156 in the above quoted years, Cal of course played all 162).   Nomar also had a good year in 1999, OPS'ing 1.022 (OPS+ of 153) but only played 135 games, but only a WAR of 6.6.   He also had a phenomenal BA, hitting .357 in 1999 and .372 in 2000. 

 

 

[ScGO's]

John Means will probably finish with the highest WAR of all rookies while spending the most time on an MLB roster as well.  Yordan Alvarez will probably get it although he only played in 80+ games. 

 

The deciding factor will be the fact that Alvarez is an Astro and Means is an O.    In my opinion, John Means deserves the ROY award. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, ScGO's said:

John Means will probably finish with the highest WAR of all rookies while spending the most time on an MLB roster as well.  Yordan Alvarez will probably get it although he only played in 80+ games. 

 

The deciding factor will be the fact that Alvarez is an Astro and Means is an O.    In my opinion, John Means deserves the ROY award. 

Means only played in 29 games.

i do think he should have received the MVO award this year and he deserves lots of second place votes for RoY but Alvarez has been a beast.  OPS over a thousand and a 175 OPS+.