Joey Ortiz 2023

[banks703]

16 minutes ago, geschinger said:

It's Westburg he should be compared with.  Assuming there is no platooning, take the three best players and then determine what the best defensive alignment is for the regulars and if the other hasn't been traded he's the super sub and/or future trade-bait.

It’s been my hunch for a while that even if an Ortiz deal does materialize, Westburg will be moved and that he’s been given the more regular ABs in recent weeks to showcase him. I like the player and would be somewhat disappointed to see either of them dealt but that’s been my gut feeling on JW. 

[geschinger]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Holliday nor Gunnar will be part of any platoon and it doesn’t appear thus far that Westburg needs one.

Agreed about Gunnar and Holiday and Ortiz/Westburg wouldn't be a potential platoon in any case.

But in the Westburg vs Ortiz comparison - what evidence would you point to that gives you confidence he's better than Ortiz (if you think he is)?  Is the comparison of what he's done in 40 ABs over 2 weeks vs what Ortiz did in 33 ABs over 3 months?

If not is it that he's put up a .899 OPS over 630  AAA ABs while Ortiz  .952 OPS only over 278 AAA ABs

I have no idea who the better player will be which is why I wish they'd let them both play as I think both would exceed the production Urias brings.  I don't want to regret eventually trading the wrong one because the org was too risk-averse to give them both a full audition. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by geschinger

[Bemorewins]

7 hours ago, geschinger said:

Agreed about Gunnar and Holiday and Ortiz/Westburg wouldn't be a potential platoon in any case.

But in the Westburg vs Ortiz comparison - what evidence would you point to that gives you confidence he's better than Ortiz (if you think he is)?  Is the comparison of what he's done in 40 ABs over 2 weeks vs what Ortiz did in 33 ABs over 3 months?

If not is it that he's put up a .899 OPS over 630  AAA ABs while Ortiz  .952 OPS only over 278 AAA ABs

I have no idea who the better player will be which is why I wish they'd let them both play as I think both would exceed the production Urias brings.  I don't want to regret eventually trading the wrong one because the org was too risk-averse to give them both a full audition. 

I don’t know which is better. I have only seen both play a few times in person and I am not a professional talent evaluator. I was comfortable with either being chosen and I honestly thought that the Orioles were going to pick Ortiz over Westburg.

However, it does not appear that is/will be the case and I am fine with that.

It is possible that both will be decent to good Major Leaguers and if that is the case I am more than okay with us trading one in order to balance out our Major League talent and complete the missing piece(s) to the championship puzzle.

IMO - I don’t get all the hand wringing over both. We have much more talented, cornerstone players for the infield who project as guys with superstar potential in Holliday and Henderson. PLUS we have elite to very good prospects/players slotted for EVERY OTHER SPOT IN THE LINEUP. If we get this wrong, it’s not going to have some kind of devastating impact.

I think that Ortiz can be a good Major Leaguer but I don’t think that he has the tools to be special/superstar. IMO he is a smallish guy and doesn’t have the physical build/make up to fit that kind of profile. Even an Altuve type player is a tremendous athlete and really strong for his size. I know that Ortiz of course is bigger, but the first time that I saw him at a game, it really struck me how small he was. Not that his physical make up/build is everything, but you don’t see a lot of superstars built like him.

[Sydnor]

After being demoted, Joey Ortiz played his first game back with Norfolk on June 28. Since that time (not including his 2/4 with a walk tonight), he has slashed .345/.424/.517 (.941 OPS) with a 139 wRC+ in 66 plate appearances.

I will also note that although I don’t think he is as talented as Andres Gimenez, Gimenez’ season shows the value that Ortiz defense could bring at second base. Despite a 95 wRC+, Gimenez is still has been worth 1.6 fWAR/2.5 rWAR in 89 games this season, largely due to his excellent defense at second.

I hope that he forces his way back on the roster/is given another opportunity soon.

[banks703]

It’s going to eventually be negligible to keep Ortiz down in Norfolk. Unless of course he’s traded. Mateo is getting like one start a week at this point. It’s time. I love me some Jorge Mateo but it’s time for Joey Ortiz. 

[maybenxtyr]

5 minutes ago, Sydnor said:

After being demoted, Joey Ortiz played his first game back with Norfolk on June 28. Since that time (not including his 2/4 with a walk tonight), he has slashed .345/.424/.517 (.941 OPS) with a 139 wRC+ in 66 plate appearances.

I will also note that although I don’t think he is as talented as Andres Gimenez, Gimenez’ season shows the value that Ortiz defense could bring at second base. Despite a 95 wRC+, Gimenez is still has been worth 1.6 fWAR/2.5 rWAR in 89 games this season, largely due to his excellent defense at second.

I hope that he forces his way back on the roster/is given another opportunity soon.

This would be a better team with Henderson, Westburg and Ortiz in the infield. I don't know if we'll see it or not because they're not going to bench Frazier and use him in a utility type roll.

[PeteCanes]

Ortiz hasn’t gotten much of a shot.  I’m not really sure his destiny to not be a “super star” should preclude his chance with us 

[Alasdaire]

8 hours ago, PeteCanes said:

Ortiz hasn’t gotten much of a shot.  I’m not really sure his destiny to not be a “super star” should preclude his chance with us 

Clearly you don’t get it, so let me explain. You see, we should trade Ortiz because he’s little and we already have a lot of other SUPERSTARS. And we could trade this little non-superstar for that one last player who we need and another team will give to us so that we can be CHAMPIONS. And we should do it all right NOW. It’s really quite simple.

Edit: this is parody, since it wasn't clear.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Alasdaire

[Bahama O's Fan]

5 hours ago, maybenxtyr said:

This would be a better team with Henderson, Westburg and Ortiz in the infield. I don't know if we'll see it or not because they're not going to bench Frazier and use him in a utility type roll.

Better now or better in the future? Westburg is still adjusting and Ortiz might need the same adjustment time that we saw from Adley, Henderson and now Westburg and Cowser

[btdart20]

44 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

Clearly you don’t get it, so let me explain. You see, we should trade Ortiz because he’s little and we already have a lot of other SUPERSTARS. And we could trade this little non-superstar for that one last player who we need and another team will give to us so that we can be CHAMPIONS. And we should do it all right NOW. It’s really quite simple.

I see that as an option, but not nearly as absolute.  Plenty of other options too.  Ortiz' defense is top shelf and his bat speed is pretty good.  Again, I'm not opposed to trading him because of our MI depth.  But I also think his whole package has a higher ceiling than Westburg.  

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, PeteCanes said:

Ortiz hasn’t gotten much of a shot.  I’m not really sure his destiny to not be a “super star” should preclude his chance with us 

I tend to agree …. He hit 60 XBHs last year in the minors in 600 ABS the included 19 homeruns. He’s said to be plus defensively and has 23 vs 3 SB/CS in the minors. 
 

He’s clearly not a #4 hitter ….but he’s hit .340 in AAA this and last season. If he hits .290 with 15+ dingers, 60+ RBI, and steals 5-10 bases with a low CS percentage while playing plus defense I’m thinking he’d be a pretty valuable MLB player. 

[Bemorewins]

Some of you are enthralled with AAA numbers. But we are not seeing a direct correlation between what a player does there and what he does here.

Gunnar was the #1 prospect in the game (much more talented/better than Ortiz) and it took him 2 months before figuring things out. Westburg is currently adjusting to this level. And Cowser has just arrived and is struggling to acclimate thus far. 

THEY WERE ALL RANKED AHEAD OF ORTIZ.

What do you guys want? To punt the season? Do you want them to bring up Kjerstad too who’s crushing AAA and a much better hitter than Ortiz? What about Mayo, him too?

I agree that Ortiz didn’t get a fair shake. But it is what it is now. Nothing can be done about what happened.

The team is trying to win while bringing guys to the show in a responsible manner,

[maybenxtyr]

1 hour ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

Better now or better in the future? Westburg is still adjusting and Ortiz might need the same adjustment time that we saw from Adley, Henderson and now Westburg and Cowser

Why not both? 

 

I'm all for trading him or whomever if it makes sense. At this point, Westburg and Frazier have pretty much the same OPS, and he hasn't even started really driving the ball. That didn't really take long. I'm looking at it as dropping Mateo completely and relegating Frazier to a bench roll. As we've seen vs the Dodgers, defense matters.

[PeteCanes]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

Some of you are enthralled with AAA numbers. But we are not seeing a direct correlation between what a player does there and what he does here.

Gunnar was the #1 prospect in the game (much more talented/better than Ortiz) and it took him 2 months before figuring things out. Westburg is currently adjusting to this level. And Cowser has just arrived and is struggling to acclimate thus far. 

THEY WERE ALL RANKED AHEAD OF ORTIZ.

What do you guys want? To punt the season? Do you want them to bring up Kjerstad too who’s crushing AAA and a much better hitter than Ortiz? What about Mayo, him too?

I agree that Ortiz didn’t get a fair shake. But it is what it is now. Nothing can be done about what happened.

The team is trying to win while bringing guys to the show in a responsible manner,

Was just saying he has a lot of value perceived or in reality.  Trade value was implied.  

[johnrambo]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Some of you are enthralled with AAA numbers. But we are not seeing a direct correlation between what a player does there and what he does here.

Gunnar was the #1 prospect in the game (much more talented/better than Ortiz) and it took him 2 months before figuring things out. Westburg is currently adjusting to this level. And Cowser has just arrived and is struggling to acclimate thus far. 

THEY WERE ALL RANKED AHEAD OF ORTIZ.

What do you guys want? To punt the season? Do you want them to bring up Kjerstad too who’s crushing AAA and a much better hitter than Ortiz? What about Mayo, him too?

I agree that Ortiz didn’t get a fair shake. But it is what it is now. Nothing can be done about what happened.

The team is trying to win while bringing guys to the show in a responsible manner,

This. Also, Westburg has flat out wrestled the job from Ortiz. I don't like the idea of pitting these guys against each other, but there's only so many roster sports available. Ortiz didn't get many ABs, but neither has Westburg so far. Problem for Ortiz is Westburg is outplaying him.