Interesting Article About Scott Boras and Orioles

[spleen1015]

23 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

IMO because all big contracts come with various degrees of risk. The wisest course is to spend on the best/most talented player. They are the ones who most likely have the longest run of great to good in them, even if they cost the most.

What you don't want to do is spend money on guys who fall off of cliffs early or are injury prone or who do not have the mentality to handle success or who do not have very strong work habits and will likely become comfortable after getting paid.

That is why I think (like many others) that Gunnar is the guy you want to extend even if you have to move heaven and earth to do so. I just don't see anything in his profile/short history that are any kind of "red flags". It is likely to be worth it (at least for a long time - at least next decade).

Also taking into account the momentum that the O's are riding with winning, so many young homegrown stars, and new ownership. IF they were to extend a Henderson and/or Rustchman IMO it will take the org to a new level and provide even greater momentum and fan interest/marketplace growth. That is how you become the next "big player/franchise" that can sustain winning beyond a short/6 yr team control window.

I've stated before that I worry that a Rays model of ongoing rebuilding, never spending meaningfully, and never being invested enough as an org to be fully committed to winning sends the wrong message to your customer/fanbase and will never really engage a community/marketplace fully. 

It was prior ownership that mentioned wanting to follow the Rays model. The only thing Rubenstein has said is that he wants to bring a WS back to Baldimore and he's going to support Elias' vision in doing that.

2 and a half months isn't enough to judge what Rubenstein's plans are. We've seen him supporting the club more in that time than we did the entire time JA was running the show.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

You bring up a great observation about the Lightning. They are in the same city and are not a small market. I would argue that the reason why is because they have managed to capture the hearts/attention of the marketplace. IMO you don't do that by allowing your fans to carry constant anxiety about who's going to be here this year and who will be gone. Of course there is roster turnover in all pro and college sports. But there also has to be some stability and confidence amongst your fans/customers that the org is as invested as me (Joe Blow the fan) and not indifferent (won't do what it takes for us/team to win it all).

 

A lot of it is folks didn't move down here being dedicated fans of whatever hockey team was their former home team.

I don't see Islander hats, I don't see Penguin Hats, ect ect.

It's a lot easier to make someone a Lightning fan if they don't have another allegiance.

Before the Rays were here this area was mostly known for being the Spring Training home of the Yankees.

Just yesterday I talked with a Philly fan and a Mets fan.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

It was prior ownership that mentioned wanting to follow the Rays model. The only thing Rubenstein has said is that he wants to bring a WS back to Baltimore and he's going to support Elias' vision in doing that.

2 and a half months isn't enough to judge what Rubenstein's plans are. We've seen him supporting the club more in that time than we did the entire time JA was running the show.

I'm not judging Rubenstien at all. As a matter of fact, so far so great in my book! Every single O's game I have gone to this year he has been there. That was NEVER the cause under the awfulness of Angelos.

[spleen1015]

7 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I'm not judging Rubenstien at all. As a matter of fact, so far so great in my book! Every single O's game I have gone to this year he has been there. That was NEVER the cause under the awfulness of Angelos.

Yeah, I don't think you're judging DR. I guess I thought it was a little weird that you would mention the Rays model when the person who mentioned he wanted to follow that model is hasta luego.

 

[Too Tall]

An agent should represent the best interests of his clients. The client and his family determine those best interests. I don't like Boras not because I feel he doesn't represent his clients well, but because I think an agent should basically be seen and not heard. In my opinion, Boras sets himself up as if he is a peer - near equal to those he represents. Semi Commissioner. How many other agents have a "press scum" at the winter meetings? Another case in point - this article. It's just Boras being Boras. The above feelings are mine and I don't repesent them as ones you should necessarily agree with so I will not argue their appropriateness. Just getting off my chest. To me Boras and Yankees are equals.

Also, in my opinion, our players represented by Boras will extend if they deem the money fair and they see their future playing careers best served in Baltimore and not some bigger money, brighter lights city. I think the Orioles will spend but they will spend, as has been said, intelligently.  We shall see how it plays out. I do think our new ownership changes the potential calculus.

So, I root today and don't get too hot and bothered about tomorrow. Just beat the Damn Yankees!

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

A lot of it is folks didn't move down here being dedicated fans of whatever hockey team was their former home team.

I don't see Islander hats, I don't see Penguin Hats, ect ect.

It's a lot easier to make someone a Lightning fan if they don't have another allegiance.

Before the Rays were here this area was mostly known for being the Spring Training home of the Yankees.

Just yesterday I talked with a Philly fan and a Mets fan.

That's a good point. 

However, a counter point could be made that when the Ravens moved to Baltimore a lot of the people were fans of other teams and the NFL combined with the Redskins did EVERYTHING that they could to make Baltimore an extension of the Washington franchise's fanbase.

Yet the Ravens were able to overcome that and capture the hearts and minds of the market. They have had it now for almost a quarter century.

My point is that in an age/era where fans/customers have more access to entertainment and information than EVER BEFORE, org behavior/excellence matters more than EVER BEFORE. The Phillies didn't always have the type of fanbase that they have now. The Padres didn't always draw the attendance figures that the are now. I would argue the Red Sox are going through the inverse now. They have fallen just a bit. But a few more years of being in mediocrity and they are going to go back to their early 2000's and 90's days.

I could be as wrong as two left shoes, but I really feel that org behavior matters. Marketplace interest/engagement/momentum is not random and not solely population driven.

STL Cards have a population smaller than ours and a comparable market size and they are always relevant in their market and always a top half payroll. Heck we were top 10 as late as 2017 under the awfulness of Angelos.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

Yeah, I don't think you're judging DR. I guess I thought it was a little weird that you would mention the Rays model when the person who mentioned he wanted to follow that model is hasta luego.

 

That was more speaking to fans/posters who have advocated for a Rays model/"pipeline" approach/constant rebuilding/no extensions or meaningful spending/hoarding prospects at all costs.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

That's a good point. 

However, a counter point could be made that when the Ravens moved to Baltimore a lot of the people were fans of other teams and the NFL combined with the Redskins did EVERYTHING that they could to make Baltimore an extension of the Washington franchise's fanbase.

Yet the Ravens were able to overcome that and capture the hearts and minds of the market. They have had it now for almost a quarter century.

My point is that in an age/era where fans/customers have more access to entertainment and information than EVER BEFORE, org behavior/excellence matters more than EVER BEFORE. The Phillies didn't always have the type of fanbase that they have now. The Padres didn't always draw the attendance figures that the are now. I would argue the Red Sox are going through the inverse now. They have fallen just a bit. But a few more years of being in mediocrity and they are going to go back to their early 2000's and 90's days.

I could be as wrong as two left shoes, but I really feel that org behavior matters. Marketplace interest/engagement/momentum is not random and not solely population driven.

STL Cards have a population smaller than ours and a comparable market size and they are always relevant in their market and always a top half payroll. Heck we were top 10 as late as 2017 under the awfulness of Angelos.

I don't think it is a great comparison of the situations.

Baltimore was without an NFL team for what, 12 years?

That's not at all the same as never having a team and having a population that is largely made up of transplanted citizens.  What percentage of folks that you would meet during a random day in Baltimore are from Maryland?  I bet it's a lot higher than the percentage of Floridians I meet and hour and half from Tampa.

[Philip]

11 minutes ago, Too Tall said:

An agent should represent the best interests of his clients. The client and his family determine those best interests. I don't like Boras not because I feel he doesn't represent his clients well, but because I think an agent should basically be seen and not heard. In my opinion, Boras sets himself up as if he is a peer - near equal to those he represents. Semi Commissioner. How many other agents have a "press scum" at the winter meetings? Another case in point - this article. It's just Boras being Boras. The above feelings are mine and I don't repesent them as ones you should necessarily agree with so I will not argue their appropriateness. Just getting off my chest. To me Boras and Yankees are equals.

Also, in my opinion, our players represented by Boras will extend if they deem the money fair and they see their future playing careers best served in Baltimore and not some bigger money, brighter lights city. I think the Orioles will spend but they will spend, as has been said, intelligently.  We shall see how it plays out. I do think our new ownership changes the potential calculus.

So, I root today and don't get too hot and bothered about tomorrow. Just beat the Damn Yankees!

Spot on. I can only add that Boras has an aggressive attitude towards everything. His version of ,”I do what my clients want me to do,” is REALLY,” I make my clients want what I tell them to want.”

And what Boras wants are his own needs first, everyone else second.

I imagine that dealing with him is very unpleasant.

[Bemorewins]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think it is a great comparison of the situations.

Baltimore was without an NFL team for what, 12 years?

That's not at all the same as never having a team and having a population that is largely made up of transplanted citizens.  What percentage of folks that you would meet during a random day in Baltimore are from Maryland?  I bet it's a lot higher than the percentage of Floridians I meet and hour and half from Tampa.

Yes you are right/factual in the composition of the populations. 

But I cited other examples from other populations/situations.

All people (or just about all) have access to instant information through the internet. The public is more informed than ever and the competition for their attention is greater than ever. I just don't see being able to offer less instead of more (compelling reason to come - excitement, winning, stars) as an effective way of doing things in 2024 and beyond. I just don't know of any models where doing less and giving people/customers less works/is sustainable. We've seen multiple examples of entire industries failing because of that (cable tv, movie industry).

The paying customer has access to all kinds of info and data regarding a bunch of stuff including team payroll and player salaries. So if the message is, "Yeah, we have billions but don't want to spend so we can get more millions. All the while you won't see any savings and we will charge as much as anyone else. And the stars that you have gotten attached to will soon be on other teams. But don't worry maybe we will have another player come along at some point who may be just as good, but probably not. Meanwhile, while they are here we will not worry about reassuring your anxieties that this will all come crumbling down soon. But don't worry about any of that just give us your money any way."

If that is the message, I can't see that being a compelling reason to continue to come and spend dollars that can always go to other forms of entertainment that make one feel better. When it comes to anything a person is invested in such as sports, religion, politics, etc at the end of the day it comes down to how it makes that person feel. If they don't feel good they are not going to continue to come back. People are as brand and institutional disloyal than ever before.

 

[Can_of_corn]

Just having lived down here for decades, and having talked to what fans exist, I don't think the reticence to keep guys around as "career Rays" is a big factor in the issues the team has with growing a fan base.

[Frobby]

22 minutes ago, Philip said:

Spot on. I can only add that Boras has an aggressive attitude towards everything. His version of ,”I do what my clients want me to do,” is REALLY,” I make my clients want what I tell them to want.”

And what Boras wants are his own needs first, everyone else second.

I imagine that dealing with him is very unpleasant.

I don’t agree at all.  Everyone knows Boras’ reputation for playing hardball with teams and often taking players to free agency.  If you hire him, you do it because that’s the kind of agent you want.  The players’ aren’t innocents being led down the wrong path by Boras.  They’re going down the path they choose.   

[Bemorewins]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Just having lived down here for decades, and having talked to what fans exist, I don't think the reticence to keep guys around as "career Rays" is a big factor in the issues the team has with growing a fan base.

It's not just that. But it's all of it (I would argue). It's the message that the org has made to the fans/potential paying customers through their actions, that we are not willing to do what it takes to be excellent. Yes we will give you a good team but we are not ever going to be committed to becoming great. That goes into the crappy ball park, the refusal to add meaningful payroll no matter what, the dogmatic adherence to "budget ball", etc. Who's the face of the Rays? They had Longoria for a long time, but everyone else they got rid of when the time came to trade them or keep them. (Except Franco and who knows what will happen there?) Every time that they have had a team in serious WS discission/contention, they never make meaningful adds to that team to try to win it all. What big FA have they ever signed?

IMO all those things matter as the message you send to the potential customer/fan.

[Philip]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t agree at all.  Everyone knows Boras’ reputation for playing hardball with teams and often taking players to free agency.  If you hire him, you do it because that’s the kind of agent you want.  The players’ aren’t innocents being led down the wrong path by Boras.  They’re going down the path they choose.   

That’s a chicken/egg comparison. Agents are SUPPOSED to guide clients. That’s their job. So it’s ok for Boras to say,”this is what you should do.” Boras is aggressive and Guides his clients to follow his guidance. A young kid fresh out of HS needs that guidance, so will be easily swayed. That’s true of every agent, but the fact that the term,”Boras Client,” instantly evokes a specific scenario, indicates that Boras is consistent in his advice and brooks little opposition.

[Warehouse]

Yes, Boras clients occasionally sign extensions.  No, Boras won’t prevent a client that wants to sign an extension from doing so.  Yes, Boras clients sign fewer pre-FA extensions than clients of other agencies (based on comparing his share of pre-FA extensions vs. his larger share of MLB players). That’s because of either the advice he gives, attracting clients with a similar philosophy, or both.

Scott has never signed a player with less than two years of service time to a long-term extension.  He has only signed 1 pre-arb player to a long-term extension which was 13 years ago (Carlos Gonzalez).

Expectations of signing Gunnar or Westburg to extensions need to be calibrated against this reality.