Markakis

[olehippi]

Nope. However if we are talking about the amount of pitches that Markakis as pulled with authority verses the amount of decent pitches he's had to pull, I'd say the percentage is really, really, really small, on the ones he's hit with authority. When he's gotten pitches he hasn't done anything with them.

I definitely believe that Nick is a victim of poor hitting support around him. His ability to walk and get on base is also being wasted because of the weak offense around him right now. Teams know that Nick has power to pull a ball and hit it out, but they don't have to pitch to him. They are content to be pitch him away, hope he will try to pull the ball, and simply ground out to 2B or SS. Nick has the ability to go with the pitch, but unfortunately, the defense plays him to slice the ball, not pull it, and a lot of Nick's balls that are hit down the left field line - that would normally be hits - end up being caught.

[TiredofLosing20]

The combination of Nick not getting anything to hit and Nick having solid plate discipline makes me think he should be leading off until Brian Roberts comes back.

Really amazing that Trembley continues to hit Jones and his terrible on base skills in the leadoff spot.

I agree completely. I get trying to stick by a guy but its time to move him way way down the lineup card (and maybe off it for a couple of games)

[KAZ97]

Some facts to aid the discussion (number of games in parentheses).

Batters ahead of Nick:

2007				2008				2009		Corey	Pattrsn	44		Brian	Roberts	68		Adam	Jones	99Melvin	Mora	43		Melvin	Mora	45		Brian	Roberts	17Brian	Roberts	24		Adam	Jones	24		Cesar	Izturis	8Chris	Gomez	17		Jay	Payton	8		Luke	Scott	3Tike	Redman	13		Alex	Cintron	4		Felix	Pie	3Jay	Payton	5		Luis	Montnz	3		Ty	Wiggi	2Miguel	Tejada	3		Freddie	Bynum	2		Jeff	Fio	2Kevin	Millar	3		Brandon	Fahey	1		Luis	Montnz	2Luis	Herndz	3						Aubrey	Huff	1Brandon	Fahey	2								Freddie	Bynum	1

Batters behind Nick:

2007				2008				2009		Miguel	Tejada	109		Aubrey	Huff	59		Aubrey	Huff	89Kevin	Millar	39		Melvin	Mora	56		Melvin	Mora	21Ramon	Herndz	6		Kevin	Millar	35		Luke	Scott	13Melvin	Mora	2		Adam	Jones	3		Adam	Jones	13Aubrey	Huff	1		Ramon	Herndz	2		Ty	Wiggi	6Chris	Gomez	1						Oscar	Salazar	1

[KAZ97]

How much does Nick miss hitting behind BRob?

Stats for Nick when batting behind Roberts and otherwise over the past three years:

	Behind BROB				Behind Someone Else	2007	0.296 / 0.349 / 0.480	0.828		0.301 / 0.365 / 0.486	0.8512008	0.345 / 0.441 / 0.539	0.981		0.274 / 0.377 / 0.451	0.8282009	0.292 / 0.338 / 0.472	0.810		0.293 / 0.349 / 0.451	0.800

[Mackus]

How much does Nick miss hitting behind BRob?

Stats for Nick when batting behind Roberts and otherwise over the past three years:

	Behind BROB				Behind Someone Else	2007	0.296 / 0.349 / 0.480	0.828		0.301 / 0.365 / 0.486	0.8512008	0.345 / 0.441 / 0.539	0.981		0.274 / 0.377 / 0.451	0.8282009	0.292 / 0.338 / 0.472	0.810		0.293 / 0.349 / 0.451	0.800

So really no discernible difference except for 2008.

And as far as 2008 goes, correlation != causation. Same as the batting 2nd / batting 3rd splits. I don't think Nick's offense this year would be considerably different if Roberts was in the lineup, other than that he'd have more RBI.

[Old#5fan]

Nick has proven that he is a 20+ homer guy...Go away and don't ruin this thread old man.

Yeah, so in your ludicrous way of thinking it was only because he was getting fat pitches to enable him to do so? Guess what, the pitchers now aren't all of the sudden pitching him that much better. To believe that is absurd and just plain balderdash! Even if he does hit close to 20 homers that surely doesn't qualify him as much of a HR hitter. That is very pedestrian HR numbers for any starting Major League corner outfielder over an entire season.

And don't tell me to go away either Whippersnapper!:laughlol:

[Frobby]

Yeah, so in your ludicrous way of thinking it was only because he was getting fat pitches to enable him to do so? Guess what, the pitchers now aren't all of the sudden pitching him that much better. To believe that is absurd and just plain balderdash! Even if he does hit close to 20 homers that surely doesn't qualify him as much of a HR hitter. That is very pedestrian HR numbers for any starting Major League corner outfielder over an entire season.

And don't tell me to go away either Whippersnapper!:laughlol:

What you said that drew SG's reaction was:

He is a singles, gap type hitter like Pete Rose or Wade Boggs, although both of those were a heck of a lot better - just using them for illustrating the type of hitter he is.

In terms of being a HR hitter, Markakis is nothing like Rose or Boggs. Boggs only had two seasons where he hit more than 10 HR's; Rose's career high of 16 is Markakis's career low. Markakis is not their type of hitter. If you want to compare Markakis' style of hitting to a hall of famer (who is better than Nick but similar in style), Yastzemski or Kaline would be more comparable. They were gap hitters who had some HR power but not known primarily for their power.

[Old#5fan]

What you said that drew SG's reaction was:

In terms of being a HR hitter, Markakis is nothing like Rose or Boggs. Boggs only had two seasons where he hit more than 10 HR's; Rose's career high of 16 is Markakis's career low. Markakis is not their type of hitter. If you want to compare Markakis' style of hitting to a hall of famer (who is better than Nick but similar in style), Yastzemski or Kaline would be more comparable. They were gap hitters who had some HR power but not known primarily for their power.

I don't necessarily disagree with you as I saw that batting stance photo comparison of Yaz and Markakis which also compared their swings which indeed are very similar. Yaz had a couple of 40 homer seasons though, and I highly doubt Markakis replicates that feat. Nevertheless you make a good point. In fairness though (which you would have no way of knowing) when I made the Boggs/Rose comparison I was specifically thinking of the way Marakis has looked so far this season, not over his whole career. Indeed to me he looks like more of a slap hitter this year in the past (at least to me). He seems not to be even trying for home runs by adopting that sort of Boggs/Rose style.

[Frobby]

Gut feeling watching tonight's game that Nick is about to get on a real roll. Hit a double to RF and crushed a liner that Youkilis caught. That's the first time in a long while he's hit two ball hard to the right side. And smacked a single to LF for good measure.

[commish]

Gut feeling watching tonight's game that Nick is about to get on a real roll. Hit a double to RF and crushed a liner that Youkilis caught. That's the first time in a long while he's hit two ball hard to the right side. And smacked a single to LF for good measure.

I was real surprised he grounded out weakly on that 3-1 middle-of-the-plate curveball, though. But yeah for the past week or so he's been getting good wood and now that he's pulling the ball, look out.

[baltfan]

Interesting to read from baseball-reference that similar batters to Nick through age 25 are Zaz, Carlos Beltran, Ellis Burks, Harold Baines. Link. Also curious to see that most similar by ages for 23 and 24 is Matt Kemp.

Pretty strong comp set there. Examining closer, you see that Yaz did not breakthrough homerun wise until age 27 when he blasted 40+ (prior was high teens, low 20s, just like Nick). Beltran did not move from the mid 20's to upper 30's until his age 27 season either.

Nick is still just 26. He is still improving, and many believe he will develop more homerun power in time. But if he doesn't, and he puts up Paul O'neill type offensive numbers, with plus defense and arm in RF, I'm sure all of us will be OK with that as a base case. Check out O'neill's OPS+ from 1993 to 1998 for the NYY.

This is a good post, but there are also players that never break out from the low 20 homer area. Boggs is a fair example given by Old Fan. I know everyone bashes Old Fan and I definitely disagree with much of what he writes including much of his griping about Markakis, but I do think Markakis very well could end up being a Paul O'Neil type at best. That isn't bad, but would be below the expectations of many on this board.

This teams needs guys to develop into superstars. If Markakis doesn't than Wieters and Jones better well. Otherwise, this team can never contend.

[Moose Milligan]

He needs to stay in the 2 hole. It's blatantly obvious.

[DrungoHazewood]

Although Nick is a much better average hitter and he's begun his career stronger than Dwight Evans, I like the comp because they both have/had a wide variety of skills. None exceptional, but all above average. If one skill slumps or declines they have a whole suite of others to pick up the slack. Someone who hits 45 homers a year with no other real skills will get more All Star votes, and maybe even a $125M contract, but guys like Evans, Nick, Billy Williams, Al Kaline... they'll win you at least as many games.

[baltfan]

Although Nick is a much better average hitter and he's begun his career stronger than Dwight Evans, I like the comp because they both have/had a wide variety of skills. None exceptional, but all above average. If one skill slumps or declines they have a whole suite of others to pick up the slack. Someone who hits 45 homers a year with no other real skills will get more All Star votes, and maybe even a $125M contract, but guys like Evans, Nick, Billy Williams, Al Kaline... they'll win you at least as many games.

This is a very good point. Evans is probably a better comp. Evans led the league in OPS twice. I don't think we will ever see Markakis do that but he could come close.

[Moose Milligan]

This is a very good point. Evans is probably a better comp. Evans led the league in OPS twice. I don't think we will ever see Markakis do that but he could come close.

Evans also had more extra base hits than anyone in the 1980's. I couldn't believe it when I saw that but it was true.