Would you trade Means?

[esmd]

9 hours ago, BobDylanBundy said:

If you don't believe Means will sustain his 2019 level of performance and there's a team out there willing to pay like he will, then you absolutely go for it. I'm not sure such a trading partner exists though. Three months ago, Means's trade value was pretty much in the gutter. Even if he ends up in the bullpen with us, he still probably brings more value from that role than what we'd get in return from a trade.

This.  I just don't see it happening - teams aren't going to give us a "wow" offer off of one (very) good 1/2 season.  Let him keep pitching and hope he continues to be at least a serviceable starter or bullpen arm, rather than the next Jeff Ballard.

[esmd]

Getting old sucks, because I know there are at least a few of you that are reading my post above and wondering who the heck Jeff Ballard is......

[Frobby]

24 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I was being sarcastic.  

I think Means might be the real deal.  That changeup is legit.  Let's see where he is in a year from now, though.

You are very droll, but I can’t believe people didn’t realize that post was tongue-in-cheek.

As to whether Means will have a Bergesen career arc, who knows?   Hopefully he won’t break his leg and won’t do any pitching for MASN commercials in the middle of the winter.

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

You are very droll, but I can’t believe people didn’t realize that post was tongue-in-cheek.

As to whether Means will have a Bergesen career arc, who knows?   Hopefully he won’t break his leg and won’t do any pitching for MASN commercials in the middle of the winter.

IIRC, Bergesen was doing well and then broke his leg.  Never really recovered from that.

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, esmd said:

Getting old sucks, because I know there are at least a few of you that are reading my post above and wondering who the heck Jeff Ballard is......

I’d forgotten that Ballard already had been pitching in the majors for two seasons before 1989.   

[Ruzious]

37 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I was being sarcastic.  

I think Means might be the real deal.  That changeup is legit.  Let's see where he is in a year from now, though.

May I suggest green font for scarcasm - though I was 99% sure you were applying the fine art.

Getting back to the topic - which deserves green font - obvioualy anyone is available for the right price, but Means is exactly the kind of player the Orioles should be looking to keep.    

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

The commercial and shoulder was the bigger problem. He was never the same after that although I do remember him actually throwing harder at some point after that.  However, the movement and command never seemed the same.

I couldn't remember what happened first.  I also don't really remember how bad the shoulder injury was, though I do remember we were all pissed about and thinking that this could only happen to the Orioles.  

4 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

May I suggest green font for scarcasm - though I was 99% sure you were applying the fine art.

Getting back to the topic - which deserves green font - obvioualy anyone is available for the right price, but Means is exactly the kind of player the Orioles should be looking to keep.    

I'll leave the COLOR fonts to @OFFNY

[jabba72]

No. I would keep him because his trade value is minimal right now, and also hope he can teach his change up to all the Oriole pitchers. 

[Ruzious]

24 minutes ago, esmd said:

Getting old sucks, because I know there are at least a few of you that are reading my post above and wondering who the heck Jeff Ballard is......

You're not really old unless you remember Greg Ballard from the Washington Bullets.

...Or Kaye Ballard from the tv show "The Mothers-In-Law".  

[Ruzious]

8 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I couldn't remember what happened first.  I also don't really remember how bad the shoulder injury was, though I do remember we were all pissed about and thinking that this could only happen to the Orioles.  

I'll leave the COLOR fonts to @OFFNY

That makes perfect sense.

[LookinUp]

29 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

Getting back to the topic - which deserves green font - obvioualy anyone is available for the right price, but Means is exactly the kind of player the Orioles should be looking to keep.    

Hypothetically, I could imagine trading him. Practically, I cannot see a scenario where another team would offer a deal I'd take. His price would be very high. He's a cheap, relatively young, starting pitcher who looks like he could stick as a 3 or 4 for years. That's hard to put a realistic price on.

[wildbillhiccup]

It really depends on what the market is (for Means). The only player on the active roster who should be untouchable is Sisco. That's it. No one else has the potential to be part of the team's future (when they're good again). If we get solid offers for any of the other players they should be moved as well. Mancini, Bundy, Cashner, etc. And by solid offers I'm not talking about taking on retreads like Villar, I'm talking about stocking our minor league system with more young prospects. And honestly, we shouldn't be worried about what our starting pitching staff will look like without those players. Stop gaps can be signed to one year deals (if need be). It won't be pretty, but I'm willing to suffer through one more year of unwatchable baseball if it expedites the rebuild process by a few years.  

[wildbillhiccup]

21 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Hypothetically, I could imagine trading him. Practically, I cannot see a scenario where another team would offer a deal I'd take. His price would be very high. He's a cheap, relatively young, starting pitcher who looks like he could stick as a 3 or 4 for years. That's hard to put a realistic price on.

I mean, it's really not. You set an internal price and if other teams don't meet it you keep him. It's that simple. The Orioles should be letting every team in baseball know that they're entire active roster is available except for Sisco (for the right price). They don't "have" to trade these players, but they certainly should be entertaining offers. 

[jerios55]

So while the view point is not necessarily the best, I'm going to use Kuechel as a comparison (since we've have a thread making the comparison).  He signed 1 yr 13 mill, and not for a full season. 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/mlbtr-poll-how-much-will-dallas-keuchel-earn-in-free-agency.html

The poll here had 65% of people thinking he'd get 4-5 yrs at an average around ~20 million.

I get that this team is going to be bad, but to really develop guys, we need to have some competent pitchers going.  With 5.5 years of control left, you'd be looking at 110 mill in value (which is assuming a lot at this point, obviously).  I doubt anyone if willing to offer even half of that value.  Way to many variables after 0.5 seasons for someone to offer something most of us would be excited about.

July 2020 or July 2021 if he is still pitching this way and we are still overall looking like 2-3 years out, I would imagine you'd be in good position to find a team that will offer value that would make sense for us to consider a move.  

Again, Kuechel may not be the best comparison whether money/talent/experience.  However, we are unlikely to even sign Cobb (I'm talking about the healthy version we thought would help, clearly not the broken one we got)/Cashner level deals in FA, so the value to this team may even be higher.  Losing is one thing and young guys can push through to a point.  If pitching is even worse (losing Cashner/Bundy/Means would put even more strain on a bad bullpen) then I think you stunt some of the development of both positional talent trying to hit 5 run homers and relievers trying to strike out the side on 1 pitch (I think trying too hard at times is part of why Givens has looked bad this year and why there was a improvement in Brach after he left).  

I do think there is 0% reason to keep Cashner this year and likely a good reason to trade Bundy this year.  If you do all 3 (or even Cashner/Means) I think you crush the morale that this team has right now.  That includes fans.  Losing is one thing, but having Santander, Stewart, Sisco, Means and other young guys makes it tolerable, at least for me.  We need pitching and his cost/control is something that would be extremely hard to lose.

 

 

[wildbillhiccup]

2 minutes ago, jerios55 said:

So while the view point is not necessarily the best, I'm going to use Kuechel as a comparison (since we've have a thread making the comparison).  He signed 1 yr 13 mill, and not for a full season. 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/mlbtr-poll-how-much-will-dallas-keuchel-earn-in-free-agency.html

The poll here had 65% of people thinking he'd get 4-5 yrs at an average around ~20 million.

I get that this team is going to be bad, but to really develop guys, we need to have some competent pitchers going.  With 5.5 years of control left, you'd be looking at 110 mill in value (which is assuming a lot at this point, obviously).  I doubt anyone if willing to offer even half of that value.  Way to many variables after 0.5 seasons for someone to offer something most of us would be excited about.

July 2020 or July 2021 if he is still pitching this way and we are still overall looking like 2-3 years out, I would imagine you'd be in good position to find a team that will offer value that would make sense for us to consider a move.  

Again, Kuechel may not be the best comparison whether money/talent/experience.  However, we are unlikely to even sign Cobb (I'm talking about the healthy version we thought would help, clearly not the broken one we got)/Cashner level deals in FA, so the value to this team may even be higher.  Losing is one thing and young guys can push through to a point.  If pitching is even worse (losing Cashner/Bundy/Means would put even more strain on a bad bullpen) then I think you stunt some of the development of both positional talent trying to hit 5 run homers and relievers trying to strike out the side on 1 pitch (I think trying too hard at times is part of why Givens has looked bad this year and why there was a improvement in Brach after he left).  

I do think there is 0% reason to keep Cashner this year and likely a good reason to trade Bundy this year.  If you do all 3 (or even Cashner/Means) I think you crush the morale that this team has right now.  That includes fans.  Losing is one thing, but having Santander, Stewart, Sisco, Means and other young guys makes it tolerable, at least for me.  We need pitching and his cost/control is something that would be extremely hard to lose.

 

 

Not to be flippant, but who cares. These men are being paid to do a job (win or lose). And half of them wouldn't even have jobs if the Orioles weren't such a terrible team. We need young prospects more than we need pitching. Stop gap pitchers can be signed. Young, high end prospects cannot unless you draft them. 

I'm not saying they should sell low on any of their players, but it seems like now is definitely the time to at least listen to offers for Means, Mancini and Cashner. You could argue that their value will never be higher. 

The Tigers seems to be in a similar situation with Matt Boyd and they are clearly entertaining offers for him. We should be doing the same with Means. If I were Elias I'd be calling the Astros (rumored to be interested in Boyd) and trying to pry away Whitley, James or Tucker. They're desperate for another reliable SP.