Rafael Palmeiro - questions for the old guys

[Frobby]

17 minutes ago, kidrock said:

Who would you compare him to in today’s game?

Really tough to say.  Similar to Votto, Freeman and Goldschmidt.  But all three of those guys have a higher OPS+ than Raffy, despite lower raw numbers.  

[Flash- bd]

35 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He should be in the HOF.

Great hitter with a beautiful swing.

Steroids likely helped him but I’m skeptical how much it helped him(or anyone else). 
 

More than that, baseball players have been taking PEDs forever and to act like that was the only era that did it is stupid.

Giving that aging curves are more normal these days it certainly feels like they are much less prevalent. Unnatural aging curves like Palmeiro or Steve Finley or a million other examples we know one of the big reasons why. 

 

Re: the question, Freddie Freeman occured to me as well as a comparison, @Too Tall. 

Best story I have is in his 2004 season, second time around, I saw him hit a couple of HRs in a game at Camden Yards in which Bonds also homered. That was before, I believe, the steroid stuff came out or was proven and I was loving Raffy (I believe he slumped really badly in the second half of that season as long as the rest of the team, with the steroid stuff...think I remember a terrible, terrible July and August for the team?). Most of us thought he was just a 'pure' baseball player and that the steroid stuff wouldn't apply to him. 95 and especially our wild card season in 96 were two of the first seasons I remember really following baseball and he was amazing. It's kind of crazy that he didn't get an all-star berth in '96 with a .927 OPS...

Edited June 8 by Flash- bd

[Safelykept]

11 minutes ago, Flash- bd said:

Giving that aging curves are more normal these days it certainly feels like they are much less prevalent. Unnatural aging curves like Palmeiro or Steve Finley or a million other examples we know one of the big reasons why. 

 

Re: the question, Freddie Freeman occured to me as well as a comparison, @Too Tall. 

Best story I have is in his 2004 season, second time around, I saw him hit a couple of HRs in a game at Camden Yards in which Bonds also homered. That was before, I believe, the steroid stuff came out or was proven and I was loving Raffy. Most of us thought he was just a 'pure' baseball player and that the steroid stuff wouldn't apply to him. 95 and especially our wild card season in 96 were two of the first seasons I remember really following baseball and he was amazing. It's kind of crazy that he didn't get an all-star berth in '96 with a .927 OP

Not really crazy because the 2 first basemen that year were Mo Vaughn who put up crazy number in 95 and 96 (MVP 1 in 95 MVP 5 in 96) The other 1b in those 2 years was Frank Thomas, who was one of my favorite players early to mid 90s You want to have some fun with offensive numbers go look up what he was doing in those years. They called him the BIg Hurt for a reason and it fit.

[kidrock]

54 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Goldschmidt is similar…good defender, very good but not elite power, good bat to ball skills, lots of walks.

Obviously Goldy is RH but similar types of players.

That is a really interesting comp.  Goldy is easily one on my favorite modern day players.  Wonder if you switched Goldy/Palmeiro into each others era, if they would produce similar numbers.

[gamiliel]

Man, what a great swing he had. Took a few years for the power to come, but as consistent as you can be. Murray is definitely a good comp, but what made Murray better overall were his clutch numbers.

Interestingly, I could see Henderson as being similar with a bit more power (naturally), yet not quite as much contact. 

[Flash- bd]

23 minutes ago, Safelykept said:

Not really crazy because the 2 first basemen that year were Mo Vaughn who put up crazy number in 95 and 96 (MVP 1 in 95 MVP 5 in 96) The other 1b in those 2 years was Frank Thomas, who was one of my favorite players early to mid 90s You want to have some fun with offensive numbers go look up what he was doing in those years. They called him the BIg Hurt for a reason and it fit.

No doubt, Vaughn and Thomas were beasts. I meant crazy in the sense that you could put up those kind of numbers back then and not be a clear all-star choice. Frank was indeed a special hitter. 

[thegardner]

16 minutes ago, gamiliel said:

Man, what a great swing he had. Took a few years for the power to come, but as consistent as you can be. Murray is definitely a good comp, but what made Murray better overall were his clutch numbers.

Very well said, I loved watching Palmeiro hit, so exciting when Eddie came up with the game on the line, 79 in particular stands out for so many comeback wins and games won in the 9th.

 

[Safelykept]

13 minutes ago, Flash- bd said:

No doubt, Vaughn and Thomas were beasts. I meant crazy in the sense that you could put up those kind of numbers back then and not be a clear all-star choice. Frank was indeed a special hitter. 

Frank was stupid good. And it was crazy how offensive that era was. Frank's first 8 years in baseball he OPS under 1.000 one time, that was his rookie year(age 22) .983, absolutely mind numbing.

[Tony-OH]

If Jeff Bagwell is in the HoF, then they really need to open it up to all of the steroid players. Can't allow one in just because he never admitted to it or got caught. 

Raffy was a sweet swinging left first baseman who issues with the Cubs was he just didn't hit for power. A few magic syringes later, Raffy became a 30 then a 40 home run hitter. 

Now I won't turn this into a steroid conversation, but I do agree with the folks that think the steroid guys belong in. I never would have said that in the past, but in the end, almost everyone great was doing steroids during the era including the pitchers. All of them got power and velocity jumps do to the 'roids and anyone that suggests they didn't have an effect are not looking at the obvious statistical gains.

Maybe part of it is knowing very good players like Harold Baines are in the hall. Is there a team that would have preferred Baines over Palmeiro in their prime. Nope. 

Maybe just create a Steroids era wing or have a mention somewhere of the steroid era timeframe and let the people decide if they think the players did them or not.

At the end of the day, Palmeiro and all of the steroid era stars provided a lot of fun to the fans. And as others have stated, players have been cheating for years to include greenies and performance enhancing drugs. 

Guys like Palmeiro and Bagwell, along with several others, SUDDENLY became power hitters and started putting up video game power numbers. But why is Bagwell in the hall and Palmeiro is not. The finger wag? 

I've been against the steroids guys getting in but I've changed my mind on the situation. If MLB is going to add in Negro Leagues as a major league for records, and allow other players into the hall that certainly should be questioned based on sudden power surges during the steroid era, then let them all into the hall. 

Well I guess I did turn this into a steroid post afterall. lol

Back to Palmeiro, I liked him, but felt he came up small too often in high leverage situations with the Orioles. I remember him as a guy who seemed to hit a lot of home runs when the team was up or down a lot, but when I go back and look at his leverage numbers that was actually not true.

It's funny how my memory of him and how I felt about him at the time was probably based off a few times that he didn't do well in key situations, but without having baseball reference or Baseball savant, my memory was burned in with that bias.

Either way, count me in the camp that Palmeiro and his 500+ home runs and 3000+ hits belongs in the HoF.

 

 

 

[SemperFi]

From college on he was always in Will Clark's shadow.  Came up as a line drive hitter with very quick wrists and once he filled out  (or started using) started to pull the ball and produced really big power numbers.  

Although some compare his numbers to Murray-IMO Eddie was a much more skilled player and it is bourne out by their MVP votes-Palmiero was once top 5 for MVP, Eddie had a 5 year run of top 5's and two other top 6 in his career.

So by his peers Palmiero was considered a very good player but Murray was elite-likely the best in the AL over his peak productivity window.

It's difficult to compare steroid era numbers-way too productive in their late 30's when guys from different eras were breaking down.

 

 

[Say O!]

I remember Raffy being the first big FA signing since the opening OP@CY and after Angelos bought the team in Oct93.  That kicked off a nice run for the Os 1994-1997.  

In a can’t make this stuff up, Raffy and Will Clark intertwined when TEX signed Clark to replace Raffy in 93 offseason and O’s subsequently signed Raffy.  Then in 98 offseason when TEX re-signed Raffy, the O’s signed Will Clark as consolation prize.

[Safelykept]

6 minutes ago, SemperFi said:

From college on he was always in Will Clark's shadow.  Came up as a line drive hitter with very quick wrists and once he filled out  (or started using) started to pull the ball and produced really big power numbers.  

Although some compare his numbers to Murray-IMO Eddie was a much more skilled player and it is bourne out by their MVP votes-Palmiero was once top 5 for MVP, Eddie had a 5 year run of top 5's and two other top 6 in his career.

So by his peers Palmiero was considered a very good player but Murray was elite-likely the best in the AL over his peak productivity window.

It's difficult to compare steroid era numbers-way too productive in their late 30's when guys from different eras were breaking down.

 

 

Well said, Raffy was a damn good player but Eddie Murray he was not.

 

[fansince1988]

He will be at the CSA show in a few weeks at the Dulles Expo Center.

https://csashows.com/guests/

[dystopia]

MLB has clearly decided not to put anyone in the HoF associated with steroids, so you can't put Palmeiro in without putting in Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc. and those guys are never getting in, so...

[jabba72]

Palmeiro was arguably better than Murray at least in his time with the O's he put up better power numbers. He was amazing here, just stayed in the game too long (almost 40?) and got burnt.