Roberts DH

[Can_of_corn]

And by atrocious, i mean he was worse than Roberts in the 17 games he played in 2012

Roberts put up a -1 WAR in 17 games in 2012. Flaherty wasn't good but by golly his glove alone makes sure he won't put up a -9.5 WAR over a whole season.

[mdbdotcom]

Those are good points, and I'm not suggesting that Roberts come back and play 3 more years, but i agree with Dipper that he can be useful this year. I do not see him being a DH, at least not the majority of the time. I just cant understand the theory in some ppl's eyes that Roberts is of no value at all to the club. Flaherty is def useful and i think should remain the utility player that can spot everyone now and then. I don't see him being productive enough offensively to be a full time player(he is 28 as you stated and still does not have a full time job). So really I'd either give Roberts a shot or go out and try to sign someone that we know will make an impact at 2B. And i do not believe Weeks is the answer

You fail to consider two points:

1) Flaherty is a plus defender (which Roberts is not)

2) The offense was one of the best last year, even with a sinkhole at 2B. It's not a position that needs to be upgraded.

The O's can't afford a nugget at every position. They need a few nuggets on the field and everyone else should be a role player, like Flaherty... someone who will be there until they become too expensive or ineffective. This is not to suggest that Roberts is a nugget. He was; he's not now. He is a declining 2B who can't play any other position and hasn't played more than 77 games since 2009. If he weren't a lifetime Oriole, people would be up in arms if the FO signed him.

[auzzy98]

Roberts put up a -1 WAR in 17 games in 2012. Flaherty wasn't good but by golly his glove alone makes sure he won't put up a -9.5 WAR over a whole season.

So you are saying you would Look past a guy in our lineup hitting .200 because he can pick it at 2nd?

[auzzy98]

You fail to consider two points:

1) Flaherty is a plus defender (which Roberts is not)

2) The offense was one of the best last year, even with a sinkhole at 2B. It's not a position that needs to be upgraded.

The O's can't afford a nugget at every position. They need a few nuggets on the field and everyone else should be a role player, like Flaherty... someone who will be there until they become too expensive or ineffective. This is not to suggest that Roberts is a nugget. He was; he's not now. He is a declining 2B who can't play any other position and hasn't played more than 77 games since 2009. If he weren't a lifetime Oriole, people would be up in arms if the FO signed him.

It really seems like the only argument anyone ever has for Flaherty is him being a "plus defender" and that he can play multiple positions. He's a crappy batter! He has one thing that is attractive to the club, that's it. No teams would give him a 2nd look for his bat

[bobmc]

Roberts put up a -1 WAR in 17 games in 2012. Flaherty wasn't good but by golly his glove alone makes sure he won't put up a -9.5 WAR over a whole season.

Oh by gosh by golly it's also time for mistletoe and holly - get up, get out and enjoy the chilly but sunny day! We already know your feelings on the man!

Sorry auzzy, carry on!

[mdbdotcom]

It really seems like the only argument anyone ever has for Flaherty is him being a "plus defender" and that he can play multiple positions. He's a crappy batter! He has one thing that is attractive to the club, that's it. No teams would give him a 2nd look for his bat

But he wasn't a much worse crappy batter than Roberts last year, and his glove more than makes up the difference. I think there is a chance that Flaherty will improve at the plate. Do you think Roberts will?

[auzzy98]

But he wasn't a much worse crappy batter than Roberts last year, and his glove more than makes up the difference. I think there is a chance that Flaherty will improve at the plate. Do you think Roberts will?

It's hard to tell, just like it's hard to tell if Flaherty's bat will improve. Anything is possible tho. Everyone saw how fresh he looked at ST last year, and how his bat speed looked, so who knows. I def think he could improve over this year, sure. The rest of you guys think he is done so i expect back lash for this post ha

[Dipper9]

But he wasn't a much worse crappy batter than Roberts last year, and his glove more than makes up the difference. I think there is a chance that Flaherty will improve at the plate. Do you think Roberts will?

I think most of us agree (even BRob apologists like myself) that Flaherty's upside is better than BRob's at this point in both their careers, and that Flaherty, while not a great hitter, is probably better "value" at this point than Roberts. But let's look at it differently. Flaherty is 27. He's no longer a prospect by any means, and he's also at the prime 27 age when hitters usually break out. I agree Ryan can keep the base warm until Schoop is ready, but anyone thinking Flaherty is gonna break out into an everyday second baseman I think has just as wishful thinking as those of us who think Roberts could return to old form.

[Tony-OH]

You can take all those numbers you're calling terrible that Roberts put up last year on a comeback from a torn hamstring, and then u can look at the numbers that Flaherty put up and they are worse, and he was healthy all year. And yet somehow everyone wants him to be our starting 2B. It makes NO sense. You can go on and on about how Roberts tore it up at the end to get his stats where they were. But you can say the same for Flaherty. He was absolutlely atrocious before he hit a little hot streak in the middle of the year.

Not going to turn this into a Flaherty vs Roberts last year argument because that has been beaten to death. Flaherty was terrible early in the year, no doubt, but over his last 183 PAs he hit .275/.339/.485/.824 with nine home runs and 8 doubles. He will play most of next season at 27-years old (entering his prime) and by all accounts is a much better defender at second base than Roberts. If you want to play the projection game that some have tried with Roberts, Flaherty would have projected to hit 27 home runs had he'd been given 550 PAs based off that production.

It's not even close who should be the second baseman in 2014 if the choice were between him and Roberts. Flaherty has JJ Hardy potential with his bat. Roberts is the past, thank him for it, and move on.

[DrungoHazewood]

So you are saying you would Look past a guy in our lineup hitting .200 because he can pick it at 2nd?

If a guy fields well enough to be a positive value I really don't care what shape that value takes. Mark Belanger had MVP-quality seasons OPSing .600.

[Tony-OH]

I think most of us agree (even BRob apologists like myself) that Flaherty's upside is better than BRob's at this point in both their careers, and that Flaherty, while not a great hitter, is probably better "value" at this point than Roberts. But let's look at it differently. Flaherty is 28. He's no longer a prospect by any means, and he's also past the prime 27 age when hitters usually break out. I agree Ryan can keep the base warm until Schoop is ready, but anyone thinking Flaherty is gonna break out into an everyday second baseman I think has just as wishful thinking as those of us who think Roberts could return to old form.

Prime is 27-31 years old. Being 28 doesn't make you any less of a player than if you were 27, it just means you are have one less prime year left.

[DrungoHazewood]

One question for Weams, Tony, Drungo, and others who are pretty much dead set against signing Roberts.

Based on the moves that Duke has signed thus far this offseason, wouldn't having Roberts on the roster be better than the "nothing" that it appears we are going to end up with?

I agree with you guys that I'd rather have a real left handed DH, a real left fielder, a real second baseman, etc, but what we ALL want doesn't appear to be in Duke's budget. So to that end, I'd take BRob over nothing.

If the the only choices are Brian Roberts or zero then it really doesn't matter. If those are DD's options we have to accept that second base will likely be a hole.

[auzzy98]

If a guy fields well enough to be a positive value I really don't care what shape that value takes. Mark Belanger had MVP-quality seasons OPSing .600.

So if JJ hardy OPS'd .600 and hit .200 the last 3 years with his tremendous glove, would u want to give him the 3 year extension that the O's wanna give him?

[mdbdotcom]

I think most of us agree (even BRob apologists like myself) that Flaherty's upside is better than BRob's at this point in both their careers, and that Flaherty, while not a great hitter, is probably better "value" at this point than Roberts. But let's look at it differently. Flaherty is 28. He's no longer a prospect by any means, and he's also past the prime 27 age when hitters usually break out. I agree Ryan can keep the base warm until Schoop is ready, but anyone thinking Flaherty is gonna break out into an everyday second baseman I think has just as wishful thinking as those of us who think Roberts could return to old form.

Judging by the way Flaherty started to hit last year when Roberts was out, last year might have been his breakout season. He didn't get the at bats. Maybe he becomes a good hitter and earns a job in the lineup every day at a different position. Maybe he just becomes a part-time player. But if the position is not going to be taken by someone who is good at it (and Roberts is not), why not give him a chance and see what he can do?

[Dipper9]

Prime is 27-31 years old. Being 28 doesn't make you any less of a player than if you were 27, it just means you are have one less prime year left.

Yeah, I changed my post after I saw your post. Still though, I don't see him becoming a great hitter at this stage of his career, but I would be very happy if I was wrong.