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Ichiro and 4000 hits

DrungoHazewood

By DrungoHazewood
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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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As Tango mentioned recently, Ichiro just passed 4000 hits if you include his MLB, NPB, and postseason numbers. Only the 3rd player to reach that mark.

Using that standard Rose has 4256 + 86 = 4342

Cobb: 4189 + 17 = 4206

I'd probably throw in minor league numbers for good measure. It's all a big continuum, Cobb's MLB totals were mostly against a league that was roughly the quality of AAA today, maybe lower than today's Japanese Leagues.

So, Ichiro had 156 Japanese minor league hits for a total of 4161 and counting.

Rose had 427 minor league hits for a total of 4769.

Cobb had 166ish (part of his 1904 minor league record appears to be missing) totaling 4372.

I'm trying to brainstorm other long time minor leaguers who might have come close to this...

Julio Franco had 2586 MLB hits, 22 postseason, 836ish in the US minors plus Mexico, and something like 442 in Asia. He also hit .423 in 99 games in Mexico in '99 but I can't find his hit total - it has to be in the neighborhood of 150. So that gives him a career mark of about 4036, not including non-MLB playoff games or winter league or spring training. So it's very likely Franco was over 4000 total hits.

Honus Wagner totaled about 3696, but we're missing his 1895 minor league numbers.

Our old buddy Willis Otanez, still going strong with a 1.000+ OPS for Aguascalientes in the Mexican League in his 22nd minor league season, has 2733 minor league hits, plus 50 MLB for a total of 2783.

HOFer Orator Jim O'Rourke had a remarkable career. He was a MLBer from almost the very start - 1872, until 1893 and totaled 2639 regular season hits, plus 22 in the proto-World Series of the 1880s. Then he went on to a 16(!) year minor league career starting at the age of 44(!!), and compiled another 776 hits, plus three full seasons (and parts of several others) that are missing from the modern records. So he probably compiled close to 4000 hits despite not playing a 100-game schedule until he was 33.

Minnie Minoso had 1963 MLB hits, 0 postseason hits, 429 documented minor league hits, 79 documented Negro League hits, and about eight or nine seasons of missing stats mostly from Mexico. So about 2500 documented hits and 500? 1000? maybe more hits lost to the mists of time.

In a similar vein, Lefty Grove went 300-141 in the majors, 111-39 in the minors, and 4-2 in the postseason, for a total of 415-182.

Iron Man McGinnity went 246-142 in the majors, 1-1 in the postseason, and 239-216 in a minor league career that stretched into his 50s. That's a total of 486-359.

Cy Young's handful of minor league games are lost to time, but he did go 2-3 in the World Series, for a total of 513-319.

A guy named Bill Thomas went 383-347, all in the minors from 1926-52.

Jack Quinn went 247-218 in a 23-year MLB career, and 101-65 in the minors, plus 0-1 in 10 World Series innings, for a total of 348-284.

Pete Alexander was 373-208 plus 45-21 plus 3-2, for 421-231.

I'll stop now... I could do this for hours.

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weams Hangout Grand Counsel

weams

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As Tango mentioned recently, Ichiro just passed 4000 hits if you include his MLB, NPB, and postseason numbers. Only the 3rd player to reach that mark.

Using that standard Rose has 4256 + 86 = 4342

Cobb: 4189 + 17 = 4206

I'd probably throw in minor league numbers for good measure. It's all a big continuum, Cobb's MLB totals were mostly against a league that was roughly the quality of AAA today, maybe lower than today's Japanese Leagues.

So, Ichiro had 156 Japanese minor league hits for a total of 4161 and counting.

Rose had 427 minor league hits for a total of 4769.

Cobb had 166ish (part of his 1904 minor league record appears to be missing) totaling 4372.

I'm trying to brainstorm other long time minor leaguers who might have come close to this...

Julio Franco had 2586 MLB hits, 22 postseason, 836ish in the US minors plus Mexico, and something like 442 in Asia. He also hit .423 in 99 games in Mexico in '99 but I can't find his hit total - it has to be in the neighborhood of 150. So that gives him a career mark of about 4036, not including non-MLB playoff games or winter league or spring training. So it's very likely Franco was over 4000 total hits.

Honus Wagner totaled about 3696, but we're missing his 1895 minor league numbers.

Our old buddy Willis Otanez, still going strong with a 1.000+ OPS for Aguascalientes in the Mexican League in his 22nd minor league season, has 2733 minor league hits, plus 50 MLB for a total of 2783.

HOFer Orator Jim O'Rourke had a remarkable career. He was a MLBer from almost the very start - 1872, until 1893 and totaled 2639 regular season hits, plus 22 in the proto-World Series of the 1880s. Then he went on to a 16(!) year minor league career starting at the age of 44(!!), and compiled another 776 hits, plus three full seasons (and parts of several others) that are missing from the modern records. So he probably compiled close to 4000 hits despite not playing a 100-game schedule until he was 33.

Minnie Minoso had 1963 MLB hits, 0 postseason hits, 429 documented minor league hits, 79 documented Negro League hits, and about eight or nine seasons of missing stats mostly from Mexico. So about 2500 documented hits and 500? 1000? maybe more hits lost to the mists of time.

In a similar vein, Lefty Grove went 300-141 in the majors, 111-39 in the minors, and 4-2 in the postseason, for a total of 415-182.

Iron Man McGinnity went 246-142 in the majors, 1-1 in the postseason, and 239-216 in a minor league career that stretched into his 50s. That's a total of 486-359.

Cy Young's handful of minor league games are lost to time, but he did go 2-3 in the World Series, for a total of 513-319.

A guy named Bill Thomas went 383-347, all in the minors from 1926-52.

Jack Quinn went 247-218 in a 23-year MLB career, and 101-65 in the minors, plus 0-1 in 10 World Series innings, for a total of 348-284.

Pete Alexander was 373-208 plus 45-21 plus 3-2, for 421-231.

I'll stop now... I could do this for hours.

So, let me get this straight. You feel that Roger Maris is the legitimate HR champion? And Rickey is the greatest of all time? Thank you.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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So, let me get this straight. You feel that Roger Maris is the legitimate HR champion? And Rickey is the greatest of all time? Thank you.

Maybe I need some more coffee, or maybe my Furlough Friday is adversely affecting my brain, but that went right over my head...

But that did remind me to look up Rickey. He had 3055 MLB hits, 650 in the minors, and 63 in the postseason, for a total of 3768. Throw in walks and he reached base by hit or base on balls 6493 times in his career!

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calmunderfire Major Leaguer Rising Star

calmunderfire

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I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I was never got excited about Ichiro's 4000 hits if you include the NPB league. I don't follow or care about Japanese or the other various leagues around the world. I look at what Ichiro has done in the MLB and granted he missed some of his best years because he came to the MLB at 27. Objectively speaking, his MLB career in totality is not as impressive as the media makes it out to be.

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weams Hangout Grand Counsel

weams

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Maybe I need some more coffee, or maybe my Furlough Friday is adversely affecting my brain, but that went right over my head...

But that did remind me to look up Rickey. He had 3055 MLB hits, 650 in the minors, and 63 in the postseason, for a total of 3768. Throw in walks and he reached base by hit or base on balls 6493 times in his career!

It was likely a wild pitch.

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TonySoprano Hangout Grand Counsel

TonySoprano

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Maybe I need some more coffee, or maybe my Furlough Friday is adversely affecting my brain, but that went right over my head...

But that did remind me to look up Rickey. He had 3055 MLB hits, 650 in the minors, and 63 in the postseason, for a total of 3768. Throw in walks and he reached base by hit or base on balls 6493 times in his career!

This is what Weams was referring to...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/cxl1tFe4EEs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I was never got excited about Ichiro's 4000 hits if you include the NPB league. I don't follow or care about Japanese or the other various leagues around the world. I look at what Ichiro has done in the MLB and granted he missed some of his best years because he came to the MLB at 27. Objectively speaking, his MLB career in totality is not as impressive as the media makes it out to be.

Yea, you're in the minority. Or at least I hope so. Objectively speaking the Japanese Leagues are the 2nd-best league in the world, Ichiro already has a higher US WAR value than several dozen current HOFers. And baseball would be far better off if there were more high level leagues to develop talent and fanbases and support for the game. One of MLB's biggest flaws is its attitude that it is the governing body for worldwide baseball, and everything should be done to accommodate and enrich MLB.

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hoosiers Hangout Grand Counsel

hoosiers

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I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I was never got excited about Ichiro's 4000 hits if you include the NPB league. I don't follow or care about Japanese or the other various leagues around the world. I look at what Ichiro has done in the MLB and granted he missed some of his best years because he came to the MLB at 27. Objectively speaking, his MLB career in totality is not as impressive as the media makes it out to be.

I also hope you are in the minority. I imagine Ichiro's stats since he entered MLB compare favorable against almost any 25 guys in MLB history from that age until they retired. There is every reason to think he would have been similarly successful in the majors at an earlier age - just can't prove it.

IMO, a different discussion would involve the ridiculous stats that Joe Mauer puts up at catcher. He has had some injury issues and doesn't get the publicity he deserves, but an obp consistently near or over .400 from a catcher is flat ridiculous. Mauer is already Hall-worthy IMO, but it would be nice to see him play another three to five years to give some lift to his cumulative stats.

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