Do you think Schoop will be traded?

[BradyBunch]

You should try reading more. Especially that it's your own reference.

Or maybe you should read the nuance.

Schoop: Excellent hands at the plate. Good strength in wrists and forearms, generates easy plus bat speed and flashed even better on some swings. Bat has consistent path through the zone. Has some loft and stays in the zone a long time. Plus hit tool may be a little light but is a fair/conservative grade.

Machado: Starts with an open stance and high hands. Gets the bat to the zone very quickly and on a consistent plane. Plus bat speed. The bat stays in the zone a long time. Good feel for the barrel with a knack for squaring the ball. Should be plus hitter with some potential to be better than that.

Do you see the nuance in that?

[Frobby]

When you get aren't playing every day your numbers start to look good. Then when you set up June 17 as the start date when he had a short 8 game hot streak.. those numbers really skew in favor of him..

He hit a 8 HRs, 7 Doubles of his 32 hits during that period. If you have to go to OPA on a guy who had 100 ABs since June 17 then you know you have a problem and need to realize he's not the answer for the future.

I have no problem with Schoop in Norfolk until June/ASG. If he's not up and playing in late July then the Orioles have officially lost the plot.

Please understand, I'm not sold on Flaherty, either. I think Schoop is the better long-term player of the two. If Schoop had played a full season last year, instead of missing half the season with a back injury, I'd be all in favor of putting him on the OD roster. But, he only played half the season, he struggled somewhat (.697 OPS), and he didn't exactly torch the Arizona Fall League (.594 OPS). All signs point to him needing a bit more seasoning.

That said, whether Schoop is up and playing in Baltimore in late July depends on how he does at Norfolk in the first half, and of course, how Flaherty does.

[Can_of_corn]

Please understand, I'm not sold on Flaherty, either. I think Schoop is the better long-term player of the two. If Schoop had played a full season last year, instead of missing half the season with a back injury, I'd be all in favor of putting him on the OD roster. But, he only played half the season, he struggled somewhat (.697 OPS), and he didn't exactly torch the Arizona Fall League (.594 OPS). All signs point to him needing a bit more seasoning.

That said, whether Schoop is up and playing in Baltimore in late July depends on how he does at Norfolk in the first half, and of course, how Flaherty does.

Of if they trade Hardy.

[BradyBunch]

You say this having no idea how either player will be doing by that time this year. Buck and Dan will evaluate that and make their best move. That's the plot.

Flaherty will be where he was in 2012/2013 a UTL guy.

[BradyBunch]

Broken Back are not temporary. Now granted it was not a severe broken back. But a back bone had a crack in it.

Which didn't require surgery or missing longer then 60 days.

[scOtt]

Flaherty will be where he was in 2012/2013 a UTL guy.

You're psychic?

Which didn't require surgery or missing longer then 60 days.

And a doctor?

[Il BuonO]

Flaherty will be where he was in 2012/2013 a UTL guy.

Actually, like last year he'll be most likely be starting 2B for the Orioles. Schoop may very well push into a UT role, but he'll still be a very useful player.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Or maybe you should read the nuance.

Schoop: Excellent hands at the plate. Good strength in wrists and forearms, generates easy plus bat speed and flashed even better on some swings. Bat has consistent path through the zone. Has some loft and stays in the zone a long time. Plus hit tool may be a little light but is a fair/conservative grade.

Machado: Starts with an open stance and high hands. Gets the bat to the zone very quickly and on a consistent plane. Plus bat speed. The bat stays in the zone a long time. Good feel for the barrel with a knack for squaring the ball. Should be plus hitter with some potential to be better than that.

Do you see the nuance in that?

I don't need your version of "nuance" to know Schoop isn't a comparable prospect to Machado. That said, it says one "has a plus hit tool" and one "should be a plus hitter with potential to be better". Yeah, I'd say that's a difference.

I'd say most people with common baseball sense would know the difference, but they are pretty clearly spelled out in the two scouting reports you provided i.e., upside, risk, projectability and defense (i.e the ability to play shortstop).

You've done a great job at being wrong at just about everything in this thread, so carry on.

[BradyBunch]

Please understand, I'm not sold on Flaherty, either. I think Schoop is the better long-term player of the two. If Schoop had played a full season last year, instead of missing half the season with a back injury, I'd be all in favor of putting him on the OD roster. But, he only played half the season, he struggled somewhat (.697 OPS), and he didn't exactly torch the Arizona Fall League (.594 OPS). All signs point to him needing a bit more seasoning.

And Schoop had a long season. WBC, Team ball, Fall league. So it's not surprising he struggled in fall ball. 8 months of playing on top of training tends to wear you out no matter your age.

Norfolk is a horrible park for a hitter. Harbor Park is where the fly ball goes to die. Schoop and like all O's hitters struggle at Norfolk along with visiting team. But on the Road it's a different story. Schoop was a .475 slugger on the road, with 9 HR in 158 ABs.

Harbor Park is having it's fences brought in 10ft in some places and 7ft in others this year which has been a trend for a while now.

[BradyBunch]

You're psychic?

Don't need to be, 2012/2013 show Flaherty's flaws.

And a doctor?

Umm, that's what happened. If it required surgery it would have been done and Schoop wouldn't have hit a homerun his fist MLB AB.

[JayThomas]

OK, back to RF for a moment.

Let's assume that he opens the season as the starting 2nd baseman. Does anyone see anything wrong with this line as his potential upside?

.260 .312 .428 .740

I won't say that he can do it but it certainly looks like plausible numbers to me. 20-25 homer potential. Good glove. Or how about these numbers?

.256 .298 .434 .732

The first set of of numbers are JJ Hardy's for his career. The second set of numbers is JJ's Baltimore career. So to me RF has the *potential* to essentially be a mirror image of JJ - mediocre BA, poor OBP, but great SLG and acceptable OPS with very good fielding. Heck, maybe he can improve on the OBP a little bit.

So, if I would expect RF to start off the year with 2nd base his to lose. If he loses it, then so be it. If he is showing the type of numbers above, then I expect to see Schoop given some time at 3B. What actually becomes of things of course also depends on whether or not we resign JJ.

[BradyBunch]

I don't need your version of "nuance" to know Schoop isn't a comparable prospect to Machado. That said, it says one "has a plus hit tool" and one "should be a plus hitter with potential to be better". Yeah, I'd say that's a difference.

I'd say most people with common baseball sense would know the difference, but they are pretty clearly spelled out in the two scouting reports you provided i.e., upside, risk, projectability and defense (i.e the ability to play shortstop).

You've done a great job at being wrong at just about everything in this thread, so carry on.

LOL..

When someone says Plus hit tool may be a little light but is a fair/conservative grade. That means they are gonna stay pat on their standard analysis and play it safe.

When someone says, Should be plus hitter with some potential to be better than that. Means they are gonna take a risk and hype the player a bit.

Those two position change the upside/risk analysis.99% of the time it's based on one's own nuance to justify their analysis.

I've know Schoop has defensive problems (and admitted to it) but that's cause he's been moved around from SS, 3rd and 2nd. Give him a spot and he will improve defensively. But he has the arm for all 3 positions.

[CA-ORIOLE]

LOL..

When someone says Plus hit tool may be a little light but is a fair/conservative grade. That means they are gonna stay pat on their standard analysis and play it safe.

When someone says, Should be plus hitter with some potential to be better than that. Means they are gonna take a risk and hype the player a bit.

Those two position change the upside/risk analysis.99% of the time it's based on one's own nuance to justify their analysis.

I've know Schoop has defensive problems (and admitted to it) but that's cause he's been moved around from SS, 3rd and 2nd. Give him a spot and he will improve defensively. But he has the arm for all 3 positions.

A. Plus hit tool may be a little light but is a fair/conservative grade.

B. Should be plus hitter with some potential to be better than that.

One is better than the other. Take a guess.

A. Potential solid- to above-average MLB player at either second or third base.

B. All-Star caliber player with plus offensive potential and a chance to stick at shortstop.

One is better than the other. Take a guess.

A. Relative Risk: High. Despite positive projections for hit tool, there?s still a good chance it doesn?t all come together, limiting his value as a prospect.

B. Relative Risk: Moderate. Natural player with good hitting and defensive fundamentals. Well-rounded player with high ceiling.

One is better than the other. Take a guess.

...it's based on one's own nuance to justify their analysis.

Maybe your nuance meter needs adjustment.

[BradyBunch]

A. Plus hit tool may be a little light but is a fair/conservative grade.

B. Should be plus hitter with some potential to be better than that.

One is better than the other. Take a guess.

A. Potential solid- to above-average MLB player at either second or third base.

B. All-Star caliber player with plus offensive potential and a chance to stick at shortstop.

One is better than the other. Take a guess.

A. Relative Risk: High. Despite positive projections for hit tool, there?s still a good chance it doesn?t all come together, limiting his value as a prospect.

B. Relative Risk: Moderate. Natural player with good hitting and defensive fundamentals. Well-rounded player with high ceiling.

One is better than the other. Take a guess.

Maybe your nuance meter needs adjustment.

And at what point did I said Schoop was better then Machado? Not once. I said they were scored the same way (Numbers) and they are. The Nuance is in the anaylsis, not the score. So whoops on your part.

Only thing I said was Schoop is better Flaherty and I am correct about it. So how about you go pick up splinters with Flaherty as that's gonna be his role in the future.

[Il BuonO]

LOL..

When someone says Plus hit tool may be a little light but is a fair/conservative grade. That means they are gonna stay pat on their standard analysis and play it safe.

When someone says, Should be plus hitter with some potential to be better than that. Means they are gonna take a risk and hype the player a bit.

Those two position change the upside/risk analysis.99% of the time it's based on one's own nuance to justify their analysis.

I've know Schoop has defensive problems (and admitted to it) but that's cause he's been moved around from SS, 3rd and 2nd. Give him a spot and he will improve defensively. But he has the arm for all 3 positions.

Things can and often do change from the initial report. Also, your not really taking into the account the ceiling for either player. Machado has always had a much higher ceiling than Schoop and that's reflected in the many Top 100 lists out there. Schoop has always been at the back end of those lists until recently when Law had him at 50 which was generous considering his injury and numbers at Norfolk. Machado was listed as high as #2 by Baseball America.

Here's a piece that details some of the problems with Schoop's swing:

Well after his stint in the WBC and a strong spring training, Baltimore once again decided to challenge Schoop, sending him to Triple-A Norfolk to start the season, where he had mixed results before suffering a stress fracture in his back in late-May. Prior to hitting the disabled list, Schoop was hitting .268/.331/.386 with 3 home runs and 1 stolen base in 34 games. Now along with Tigers' prospect Nick Castellanos, Schoop is one of just two 21-year old position players in the International League this year so we still need to view his numbers with some context, yet I am becoming somewhat tired of giving him that excuse. Castellanos, for comparisons' sake, is hitting .300/.375/.498 against the same competition. Scouts note that he has a bit of a bat wrap that messes with his timing and limits his ability to handle premium velocity. For fantasy purposes, that mechanical flaw won't allow him to tap into his above-average power, limiting his utility because he is not a base stealing threat.

http://www.faketeams.com/2013/6/15/4433748/what-has-changed-jonathan-schoop-baltimore-orioles