Olney on O’s losing

[Jagwar]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No they didn’t…but just because they didn’t before doesn’t mean they can’t now.  
 

It’s not an either/or situation.  You can and should be doing everything.

I think I'm somewhat agreeing with you. I think the O's are doing everything they can. But the organization was in such sorry shape that the transformation is going to take longer than we want

 

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

22 out of 30 is "decimated"?

While Dan did make some short sighted trades the farm wasn't decimated.  Talent was there.

Also one contract doesn't cripple a team.  I think you mean crippling restrictions from ownership.

You take the Davis contract away and it changes nothing of substance from 2018-2021.

The Davis contract albeit an embarrassment has been an overrated storyline at times. If anything it happened at the best time if you were forced to have it happen. 

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

I never said they should have been competitive in 2019.  
 

 

Define competitive?  Spend money to get to 70 wins?  Still last place, still drafting top 5 and that’s if the money pays off.  

[vab]

What we're basically arguing about here is whether the Orioles should be historically bad or just garden variety bad. Sorry but if I owned them I'm not spending 20-30 million a year to go from 55 wins to 75. Plow that money into the farm system and the international program which is being built from scratch. Now are they doing that? I don't know but that would be a better idea. 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

I think I'm somewhat agreeing with you. I think the O's are doing everything they can. But the organization was in such sorry shape that the transformation is going to take longer than we want

 

But it doesn’t HaVe to.  It’s a choice.  This is the path they chose but it doesn’t have to be that way.

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, vab said:

What we're basically arguing about here is whether the Orioles should be historically bad or just garden variety bad. Sorry but if I owned them I'm not spending 20-30 million a year to go from 55 wins to 75. Plow that money into the farm system and the international program which is being built from scratch. Now are they doing that? I don't know but that would be a better idea. 

Bingo.

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

22 out of 30 is "decimated"?

While Dan did make some short sighted trades the farm wasn't decimated.  Talent was there.

Also one contract doesn't cripple a team.  I think you mean crippling restrictions from ownership.

You take the Davis contract away and it changes nothing of substance from 2018-2021.

Well, decimated only requires 1 in 10 soldiers to be dead.  

As to Davis’ contract, I’d say hampered,  not crippled.   It’s not insurmountable but it obviously makes the job harder.  
 

[Pickles]

Just now, Frobby said:

Well, decimated only requires 1 in 10 soldiers to be dead.  

As to Davis’ contract, I’d say hampered, crippled.   It’s not insurmountable but it obviously makes the job harder.  
 

There was some talent in the farm system that Elias inherited, but it was mostly very young, and most of the biggest names haven't even reached the MLs.  It really SHOULD lend credence to the appreciation of how long a thing like this takes.

Also, don't underestimate the morale aspect of Davis' contract for the other players on the team.  That kind of thing can tear a team apart, and in- perhaps coincidentally- seemed to correspond to the collapse of that team.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Frobby said:

Well, decimated only requires 1 in 10 soldiers to be dead.  

As to Davis’ contract, I’d say hampered, crippled.   It’s not insurmountable but it obviously makes the job harder.  
 

I'm aware of the original definition of the term.

I've never heard the term used in that context outside of historical texts. 

I think if you take Davis' contract off the books the only possible difference you would see in the 2021 Orioles is that Zach Pop might be on the 40 man.

There is no reason that the Davis contract should hamper a rebuild.

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm aware of the original definition of the term.

I've never heard the term used in that context outside of historical texts. 

I think if you take Davis' contract off the books the only possible difference you would see in the 2021 Orioles is that Zach Pop might be on the 40 man.

There is no reason that the Davis contract should hamper a rebuild.

Sure, there’s nothing better the team could do with $23 mm than give it to Davis.   

I was making a joke about decimated.   
 

[Barnaby Graves]

5 minutes ago, vab said:

What we're basically arguing about here is whether the Orioles should be historically bad or just garden variety bad. Sorry but if I owned them I'm not spending 20-30 million a year to go from 55 wins to 75. Plow that money into the farm system and the international program which is being built from scratch. Now are they doing that? I don't know but that would be a better idea. 

Going for 75 wins means sometimes you have a window where overperformances and sheer luck can give you a team that is in the playoff hunt.

It hasn't helped the 2021 Orioles that a lot of these guys are failing even their low expectations, but let's say a few more of them did put together decent seasons for their talent level.  They're still probably a 70-win team or so even in the optimistic case.  There's just not much there.  You're giving Harvey and Lopez 40% of the starts, not to mention the cast of characters you're trying to slot in the 4 and 5 spots.

There's others dynamics to it too--frankly the AL East is especially brutal this year, so even going for 75 wins probably doesn't get you anything, and maybe the Orioles took stock of the division and said, what's the point this year.  They're not just beating up on the Orioles, all four of our division rivals are >.500 in interleague, >.500 vs. the AL Central, and collectively are a smidge worse than .500 vs. the West.

Like you mentioned, there's an ownership and financial aspect that I don't know anything about.  Probably COVID was part of the reason they didn't think going for 75 wins or adding some more legitimate players had much of a point.

[Sports Guy]

It’s a lot easier to become a contender sooner if you win 75 games as opposed to 55.

Simple question to those who think the Os are doing the right thing.  Are you ok if they field a similar team next year?  Yes I know we will see Adley and some others but basically this team plus those guys.  Are you good with that?  Are you good with another nothing offseason and another offseason of “we are still trying to build a pipeline”?

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Sure, there’s nothing better the team could do with $23 mm than give it to Davis.   

I was making a joke about decimated.   
 

Do you think the O's would have done something to improve the team with that 23M?

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s a lot easier to become a contender sooner if you win 75 games as opposed to 55.

Simple question to those who think the Os are doing the right thing.  Are you ok if they field a similar team next year?  Yes I know we will see Adley and some others but basically this team plus those guys.  Are you good with that?  Are you good with another nothing offseason and another offseason of “we are still trying to build a pipeline”?

Yes. 

Because isn't this team plus "those guys" basically what you're arguing for now?

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you think the O's would have done something to improve the team with that 23M?

Yes.