Roch: Holliday, Mayo, Kjerstad, Stowers, Norby, and Al Suarez optioned

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Well @Frobbyand I had a little back and forth earlier where he took umbrage about what I expected Elias to say.  And I would have expected Elias to say all along that Holliday has a shot to make the team out of ST when anyone who has an understanding of gaming a service clock would say otherwise.  

But again, that's what I expect Elias to say.

I have no problem with the decision to send Elias down, nor do I have a problem with anything he said about Holliday’s chances of making the team this offseason.  And, I think the reasons he gave for why Holliday didn’t make the team are legitimate.   I don’t know what Holliday’s stats against LHP were this spring, but I definitely saw some pretty poor at bats against them, both at games I attended and ones I watched on TV.

So, let the kid go back to Norfolk, get more experience, play some more 2B, etc.   We’ve seen every other prospect, including Adley and Gunnar, have at least a couple hundred at bats at Norfolk before making the jump to the majors.  If that’s what Elias thinks is best for Holliday’s development, I’m absolutely fine with it.  

Now, if the O’s wait until very shortly after the April 11 cutoff for accruing 172 days of service and then call him up, I’ll consider that a crass attempt at service time manipulation.  But I’ll place a strong wager that we won’t see Holliday for at least 6 weeks, and then only if he’s dominating at Norfolk and there’s a need at the major league level.   
 

[EdwinRip]

3 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

We don't know that he doesn't. We're gonna find out!

Langford will DH and was a college bat.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

3 minutes ago, dtk9119 said:

Also, how is it that Langford, who's not even played in AAA for the Rangers, doesn't need to continue his "development" at AAA?

He's just wayyyy better than the #1 prospect in baseball, obviously 

[spleen1015]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I have no problem with the decision to send Elias down, nor do I have a problem with anything he said about Holliday’s chances of making the team this offseason.  And, I think the reasons he gave for why Holliday didn’t make the team are legitimate.   I don’t know what Holliday’s stats against LHP were this spring, but I definitely saw some pretty poor at bats against them, both at games I attended and ones I watched on TV.

So, let the kid go back to Norfolk, get more experience, play some more 2B, etc.   We’ve seen every other prospect, including Adley and Gunnar, have at least a couple hundred at bats at Norfolk before making the jump to the majors.  If that’s what Elias thinks is best for Holliday’s development, I’m absolutely fine with it.  

Now, if the O’s wait until very shortly after the April 11 cutoff for accruing 172 days of service and then call him up, I’ll consider that a crass attempt at service time manipulation.  But I’ll place a strong wager that we won’t see Holliday for at least 6 weeks, and then only if he’s dominating at Norfolk and there’s a need at the major league level.   
 

Yes, send Elias down!

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

No. A GM should be fired if they were dumb enough to say that. 

MLBPA would quickly be on the phone if he said that.

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I have no problem with the decision to send Elias down, nor do I have a problem with anything he said about Holliday’s chances of making the team this offseason.  And, I think the reasons he gave for why Holliday didn’t make the team are legitimate.   I don’t know what Holliday’s stats against LHP were this spring, but I definitely saw some pretty poor at bats against them, both at games I attended and ones I watched on TV.

So, let the kid go back to Norfolk, get more experience, play some more 2B, etc.   We’ve seen every other prospect, including Adley and Gunnar, have at least a couple hundred at bats at Norfolk before making the jump to the majors.  If that’s what Elias thinks is best for Holliday’s development, I’m absolutely fine with it.  

Now, if the O’s wait until very shortly after the April 11 cutoff for accruing 172 days of service and then call him up, I’ll consider that a crass attempt at service time manipulation.  But I’ll place a strong wager that we won’t see Holliday for at least 6 weeks, and then only if he’s dominating at Norfolk and there’s a need at the major league level.   
 

I think the reasons he gave are legitimate, but when you tie those reasons to service time the choice becomes clear.  IMO, if service time wasn't a factor here, I think he'd be starting the season in Baltimore.

 

 

[forphase1]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

I think for a guy that is usually reserved with his words, Mike was not that way about Holliday during the off-season. I don’t think his stat line played any role. My guess is in retrospect that Elias was open to him making the team but it wasn’t likely. I would argue the way Mike talked about him it sounded likely he would. 

I don’t get your last point where you basically agree and say it was bad PR but still PR. This kid doesn’t need PR. You aren’t hyping Jerry Hairston to the fans and saying he is the savior of the franchise here. The Orioles won 101 games and are loaded with top talent. It’s an entertaining team. A huge portion of the frustration today is due directly to how the Orioles talked about Holliday all winter. 

PR is simply public relations.  With Holliday being the #1 prospect in the world, I don't think he wanted to say 'Yeah, he has VERY little chance to make the team' or 'the plan is for him to start in AAA'.  Instead he hyped up his chances, acted like there was a real good chance he makes the team, when at best it wasn't very likely.  I'm not saying he was overhyping Holliday, as frankly he deserves all the hype, but rather he hyped up the chances Holliday had to really make the team.  I think the chances were VERY slim, no matter how he played.  Elias was being disingenuous when describing how good of a chance he had.

 

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

MLBPA would quickly be on the phone if he said that.

I wonder if part of the next negotiations we will see an expansion of players who receive a full year of service time and draft pick compensation to teams. 

[oriolediehard]

I hope we don't have a bad start to the season by not going north without our best 26 man roster???

[dtk9119]

I guess the other thing that eats at me is that the options other than Holliday are better than him how exactly? We are not putting the BEST 26 players on the OD roster.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

I wonder if part of the next negotiations we will see an expansion of players who receive a full year of service time and draft pick compensation to teams. 

I think this will be a hot issue in the next round of negotiations.  It's my hope that they figure out a way to get rid of the issue altogether but I don't know how possible it is.

[Moose Milligan]

Quick look at the Rangers, Wyatt Langford made the OD roster.  So, he'll have a head start on the ROY race.

 

[now]

2 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

PR is simply public relations.  With Holliday being the #1 prospect in the world, I don't think he wanted to say 'Yeah, he has VERY little chance to make the team' or 'the plan is for him to start in AAA'.  Instead he hyped up his chances, acted like there was a real good chance he makes the team, when at best it wasn't very likely.  I'm not saying he was overhyping Holliday, as frankly he deserves all the hype, but rather he hyped up the chances Holliday had to really make the team.  I think the chances were VERY slim, no matter how he played.  Elias was being disingenuous when describing how good of a chance he had.

 

I agree "disingenuous" fits to a tee. But why, for what benefit to overhype his chances? That part makes no sense... unless he actually was underwhelmed by the matchups and defense. But then that doesn't jibe with the comments about "way, way, ahead." It just seems like bad PR for fans and player, and actually kind of baffling for that reason. 

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, forphase1 said:

PR is simply public relations.  With Holliday being the #1 prospect in the world, I don't think he wanted to say 'Yeah, he has VERY little chance to make the team' or 'the plan is for him to start in AAA'.  Instead he hyped up his chances, acted like there was a real good chance he makes the team, when at best it wasn't very likely.  I'm not saying he was overhyping Holliday, as frankly he deserves all the hype, but rather he hyped up the chances Holliday had to really make the team.  I think the chances were VERY slim, no matter how he played.  Elias was being disingenuous when describing how good of a chance he had.

 

“Jackson has had a limited number of at bats at AAA. He is a freakish talent who has sped through our system. I am not ruling out the possibility of him making our OD roster. I am also not going to make any guarantees that he will.”

 

 

If Mike said something along those lines I think the outcry today would not be as loud. 

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, DrinkinWithFermi said:

He's just wayyyy better than the #1 prospect in baseball, obviously 

This kind of statement is silly.  Holliday is the no. 1 prospect due to his long term potential, not because of where he is right now.  The odds that Langford would outhit Holliday this year are quite high.  He’s 2+ years older, had a 1.242 OPS this spring, and a 1.157 OPS in the minors last year.