Pie continues to impress

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, to say that he's a fan of playing the good players as long as they aren't rested is fine, however, there's a distinct possibility a lineup with Pie in it, at least against righties, is the best 9 we can put out there.

Not to mention, i think the idea of this being a flyball staff and how his defense will help is really getting overlooked.

[mweb]

Not to mention, i think the idea of this being a flyball staff and how his defense will help is really getting overlooked.

True.

I think the thing that is likely to frustrate me most this season is Atkins playing over Pie. I doubt Atkins hits any better than Pie, he obviously doesn't bring as much to the table with the glove or with baserunning, and he is older with less of a chance of helping the team long-term.

I'd also blame AM much more than Trembley for this.

[commish]

I'm not a Pie supporter. I think he will be no more than a .230-.250ish guy who will hit his share of doubles. If that impresses you fine. I'd trade him after his first hot streak.

It's beyond me why any O's fan wouldn't support every player on the team. Maybe that's not what you meant by that statement; but still, folks get so caught up with arguing why Pie won't be any good that they start to root against him. That's a shame.

[RShack]

Or just has a bias against Pie.

For whatever reasons, Pie is a big projective test. You have one set of actual facts, but people put way different spins on those facts, based on God-knows-what. I don't know why the guy elicits this reaction, it's nothing he actually did, at least nothing we know about, but he sure does.

I think part of the problem is that some folks like to have nice neat little lineups, where they can make up a list and pretend that's who the O's should run out there everyday. Having 5 good OF'ers (including Luke) for 4 slots (including DH) makes that impossible to do. I think it's a good thing, but it makes it way harder to have a single all-purpose plan.

This is the kind of thing that caused Casey Stengel to do all that platooning he did with the MFY's back when they went to the WS almost every year. He didn't do it to overcome individual weaknesses, he did it because he had more good players than he had jobs to give them, and the challenge was to let them all play. This is a very good thing, it's exactly the kind of so-called "problem" we want to have. But I bet some folks won't be happy unless the O's are watered down to the point where we have no more good players than we have full-time jobs for them. That makes the team worse, but it makes it easy to write down you're favorite lineup.

[Frobby]

True.

I think the thing that is likely to frustrate me most this season is Atkins playing over Pie. I doubt Atkins hits any better than Pie, he obviously doesn't bring as much to the table with the glove or with baserunning, and he is older with less of a chance of helping the team long-term.

I'd also blame AM much more than Trembley for this.

News flash: Pie doesn't play 1B, which is where Atkins is playing. What you really are saying is that Scott should be playing 1B. It is obvious that the O's decided last season that Scott at 1B isn't a viable option. I don't know why, but that's what they think. So, the O's were going to have another 1B on the roster, whether it was Atkins or someone else. The fact that it is Atkins, as opposed to any 1B you could name, is irrelevant to Pie's playing time.

[wildcard]

It's not worthless in my opinion. It just happens to show that the organization that has seen him since he was signed gave up on him for a middle reliever. They certainly may be wrong, but if other teams thought he had every day starter potential he would have brought more than Olson.

Guthrie was a waiver claim when the Indians tried to sneak him through waivers so it's a bit different.

As for Reimold, my opinions on him are well documented as he came through the system and I stand by them 100%. I think I hit him pretty close overall and yes, he does have some short-comings as well, but his ability to hit pitchers from both hands pretty equally gives him the edge as a regular starter over Pie along with his significant power potential.

I will have to disagree with you on Trembley. I think he will find a way for him to get his at bats as long as he's hitting. I think those at bats may come from Atkins more than anyone else though.

I look for Pie to claim the at bats against righthanded pitchers as a leftfield/backup CF during spring training. The reason is simple. He showed in the 2nd half last year that he is a better defensive LF then Reimold or Scott. He has a chance to hit for an 840 OPS in about 420 at bats. That will have great value to the team because of his defensive ablility.

Reimold can get 500 at bats if he can stay healthy enough to get to the plate that many times from the LF/DH spot. His hitting potential will get him that much playing time.

Scott is the player whose at bats gets limited here and it is main because he is so streaky. When he is hot he has to play. But if he is not hot he is not better then Reimold and now that he is being more open about his dissatifaction about being a DH I don't look him to last through the season without being traded. MacPhail can find other players to DH including Snyder, Bell and Montanez so someone that is openly complaining will probably force a trade as soon as the right opportunity comes along.

The player that the Cubs gave up in Pie is not the same player he is today. Pie in April last year showed he was a free swinger that Piniella did not think could help the best team in the NL in 2008. That is why he was traded. The Cubs needed to win and where of the brink of a world series appearence. Then Hendry made a series of bonehanded moves including signing Bradley, Fukedome and trading DeRosa that along with some injuries to key players cost him that best team in the NL status.

Under Crowley, Pie is now a different hitter. More disciplined with an idea of what he is looking for when he goes to the plate. He still needs to prove he can hit lefties and that limits him to a part time player. But when he plays against righties he looks like he can be a terrific player and a real asset to the team because of his superior defense.

[DrungoHazewood]

This is the kind of thing that caused Casey Stengel to do all that platooning he did with the MFY's back when they went to the WS almost every year. He didn't do it to overcome individual weaknesses, he did it because he had more good players than he had jobs to give them, and the challenge was to let them all play. This is a very good thing, it's exactly the kind of so-called "problem" we want to have. But I bet some folks won't be happy unless the O's are watered down to the point where we have no more good players than we have full-time jobs for them. That makes the team worse, but it makes it easy to write down you're favorite lineup.

No, I think Casey did it to overcome weaknesses. Not that the guys he platooned were bad, it's that he realized by platooning and shuffling the lineup he could turn a collection of average or good players into the equivalent of regular stars. He'd pinch hit for Gil McDougald in the 3rd inning because he believed someone on the bench was a better hitter in that situation. Looking at it another way, McDougald had a relative weakness.

Guys like Casey and Earl didn't care so much about getting everyone playing time. They cared about having 25 guys on the roster who did something better than everyone else, and they put them in the game regularly because it gave their teams a better chance to win.

I think Earl or Casey managing the 2010 O's would platoon at DH, left field, and first base. Probably even center field. Actually, Casey would probably play Tejada at short almost half the time, third a bunch, and occasionally at second. Unless you were Mickey Mantle Casey had no use for set roles. I'm sure you could find many games where Whitey Ford closed a day or two after a start, while McDougald played three positions.

[Old#5fan]

I look for Pie to claim the at bats against righthanded pitchers as a leftfield/backup CF during spring training. The reason is simple. He showed in the 2nd half last year that he is a better defensive LF then Reimold or Scott. He has a chance to hit for an 840 OPS in about 420 at bats. That will have great value to the team because of his defensive ablility.

Reimold can get 500 at bats if he can stay healthy enough to get to the plate that many times from the LF/DH spot. His hitting potential will get him that much playing time.

Scott is the player whose at bats gets limited here and it is main because he is so streaky. When he is hot he has to play. But if he is not hot he is no better then Reimold and now that he is being more open about his dissatifaction about being a DH I don't look him to last through the season without being traded. MacPhail can find other players to DH including Snyder, Bell and Montanez so someone that is openly complaining will probably force a trade as soon as the right opportunity comes along.

The player that the Cubs gave up in Pie is not the same player he is today. Pie in April last year showed he was a free swinger that Piniella did not think could help the best team in the NL in 2008. That is why he was traded. The Cubs needed to win and where of the brink of a world series appearence. Then Hendry made a series of bonehanded moves including signing Bradley, Fukedome and trading DeRosa that along with some injuries to key players cost him that best team in the NL status.

Under Crowley, Pie is now a different hitter. More disciplined with an idea of what he is looking for when he goes to the plate. He still needs to prove he can hit lefties and that limits him to a part time player. But when he plays against righties he looks like he can be a terrific player and a real asset to the team because of his superior defense.

I agree with everything you wrote except the part where you say "when Scott is not hot, he is no better than Reimold." When Scott is not hot he is the worst hitter on the team now that Daniel Cabrera isn't an Oriole anymore! I don't get the Reimold remark at all! Scott is an all or nothing hitter. He's either awesome or terrible.

[Frobby]

I agree with everything you wrote except the part where you say "when Scott is not hot, he is no better than Reimold." When Scott is not hot he is the worst hitter on the team now that Daniel Cabrera isn't an Oriole anymore! I don't get the Reimold remark at all! Scott is an all or nothing hitter. He's either awesome or terrible.

He probably meant to type, "when Scott is not hot, he is not better than Reimold." Which, as you point out, is an understatement. At the same time, when Scott is hot, he can absolutely carry a team. So, you have to find opportunities for him. He has always been streaky, but he never had as prolonged a cold streak as he did last year for about 3 months. You can live with a 2-3 week cold streak, but 2-3 months is harder to take.

Edit: By the way, I do need to point out that you have a total double standard when it comes to your criticism of Luke Scott and your man crush on Adam Jones:

Scott, June 17 - Sept. 14: .213/.297/.374 in 259 plate appearances

Jones, May 30 - Sept. 1: .221/.282/.352 in 326 plate appearances

Jones was just as streaky as Scott, in fact, his slump lasted more plate appearances and his numbers were worse. Yet, I never hear you criticizing Jones for being streaky, you act as if he's the best player on the team.

[Sanfran327]

Frobby is right: this comes down to who should have more ABs between Pie and Scott.

I'm a Scott supporter, but I think his skills are fairly limited. He's essentially a left-handed Pedro Cerano. He hammers fastballs from righties, and that's pretty much it. To me, he's a bench player/4th/5th OFer/DH vs. tough righties to relieve Reimold. Unfortunately for him, that may only translate into 350 ABs this year, but if Trembley can make those ABs count, ala only sending him to the plate vs righties, those 350 ABs can make an impact for us.

SG has another great point: we have a fly-ball staff, and the best possible outfield defense should be a priority. Reimold has speed, but that seems to be about it. Bad routes, poor transfer, poor judgement, etc, will likely hurt us this summer. Pie has too much talent not to try him out for an extended look. Worst-case scenario is that Reimold does, in fact, earn the job outright if Pie tanks. I know, sounds like 2009, right? Not exactly. Pie has had a whole year to work with Crowley, and really showed a glimpse late last season. Perhaps if Pie doesn't have to look over his shoulder constantly, he can relax and play ball. Roberts only took off at 2b once we traded Hairston. Maybe that can happen again.

[wildcard]

He probably meant to type, "when Scott is not hot, he is not better than Reimold." Which, as you point out, is an understatement. At the same time, when Scott is hot, he can absolutely carry a team. So, you have to find opportunities for him. He has always been streaky, but he never had as prolonged a cold streak as he did last year for about 3 months. You can live with a 2-3 week cold streak, but 2-3 months is harder to take.

Edit: By the way, I do need to point out that you have a total double standard when it comes to your criticism of Luke Scott and your man crush on Adam Jones:

Scott, June 17 - Sept. 14: .213/.297/.374 in 259 plate appearances

Jones, May 30 - Sept. 1: .221/.282/.352 in 326 plate appearances

Jones was just as streaky as Scott, in fact, his slump lasted more plate appearances and his numbers were worse. Yet, I never hear you criticizing Jones for being streaky, you act as if he's the best player on the team.

Yes "not" better than Reimold. The point is that if Pie is in left against righties because he is the better LFer, and Scott is not hot, Reimold pushes Scott out of the DH spot and too the bench.

Jones can be asset to the O's playing the field. The O's have at least 3 OFers that are better in the field then Scott and Reimold will probably grow to become a better and more consistent hitter.

[Frobby]

Yes "not" better than Reimold. The point is that if Pie is in left against righties because he is the better LFer, and Scott is not hot, Reimold pushes Scott out of the DH spot and too the bench.

Jones can be asset to the O's playing the field. The O's have at least 3 OFers that are better in the field then Scott and Reimold will probably grow to become a better and more consistent hitter.

Oh, I'm not dissing Jones at all, and I agree he's an asset in the field. But it is totally hypocritical for Old#5Fan to pillory Scott repeatedly for being so streaky, without acknowledging that Jones, his favorite player, has been just as streaky.

Personally, I do not expect either of them to have as prolonged a slump in 2010 as each experienced in 2009.

As to Pie, Scott and Reimold, I've said multiple times that there are plenty of plate appearances available to get everyone adequate playing time, and it is a simple fact of life that there will be injuries that will play a role, too.

[napbow]

With Reimold's sore achilles I can see Pie getting a lot of playing time in left field.

I'm sure this has been stated but I don't feel like reading 10 pages.

[Tony-OH]

I look for Pie to claim the at bats against righthanded pitchers as a leftfield/backup CF during spring training. The reason is simple. He showed in the 2nd half last year that he is a better defensive LF then Reimold or Scott. He has a chance to hit for an 840 OPS in about 420 at bats. That will have great value to the team because of his defensive ablility.

Under Crowley, Pie is now a different hitter. More disciplined with an idea of what he is looking for when he goes to the plate. He still needs to prove he can hit lefties and that limits him to a part time player. But when he plays against righties he looks like he can be a terrific player and a real asset to the team because of his superior defense.

This is a wildly optimistic view of Pie which is fine. It is what is, but the reality is that everything would have to go perfect for Pie to be an .840 OPS player. If he is that kind of guy, then I would agree, he should be starting.

I completely understand that his swing was reworked by Crowley, and his little hot streak before coming back to earth makes me think he was able to retain that for awhile. Unfortunately, the big knock against him in the past is that he doesn't retain what was taught. Do you think the Cubs never tried to rework his swing or do you just go along with the assumption that the Cubs entire organization is filled with nincompoops?

Again, I think Pie has value, and I certainly think he's a better defensive outfielder than Reimold, but thinking he's going to be a .840 OPS guy in 400+ at bats is wildly optimistic in my opinion.

Anyone who thinks Pie is the next superstar based off his minor league numbers, Ruben Mateo says hello.

[Guest rochester]

I tend to believe that Pie's value will never again reach the level it was this offseason.

Frankly, I would have rolled the dice on this one and traded him this offseason if we got back a piece which we have more of a need now and long term. Our OF without Pie is fine IMO.