Roch: Holliday, Mayo, Kjerstad, Stowers, Norby, and Al Suarez optioned

[BirdCakes22]

5 hours ago, spleen1015 said:

What a disappointing way to start the season.

If I'm Holliday, I'll never sign an extensions with the O's.

the kid is barely out of high school. He needs more at bats in triple A - why hurt his confidence by bringing him up way too soon. It really doens't matter - he'll be playing all the time soon enough. 

[StottyByNature]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

I don't think any human (including Elias) is above criticism. I think it's perfectly okay if some question/don't like this decision.

As far as Holliday helping us toward the end of the season, if he is anything like any of our other top level prospects in recent years (Adley/Grayson/Henderson) it is going to take him a while to acclimate when he arrives. If he arrives later in the season, I don't think it is that realistic to rely on him being a difference maker in October. Last season, Gunnar didn't hit for almost the first 2 months of the season and Grayson had to be sent back down.

Fair point, but there is a wide gap between questioning a decision and acting like some grave injustice has been inflicted upon us by a nefarious overlord.  Most of this thread has been the latter. Elias clearly has a vision for this team and so far it has worked extremely well.  Anyone acting like this was some easy, obvious decision is plainly wrong.  

I considered (and agree with) the second point and believe he will be brought up with enough time to make that acclimation by the postseason. 

[Moose Milligan]

Chourio makes the opening day roster too. I guess he didn’t have anything to work on.  

[eddie83]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

What if he’d said this:

“I think he is going to be impressive [in spring training],” Elias said. “We’re going to make a baseball valuation with our eyes and our coaches and some of his performance, and then also what our alternatives are. He’s in camp to try to make the team. Brandon’s going to put him in every position to do so. He has not spent very much time at Triple-A, and if he goes back — regardless of how he does in spring — I do not think it would be a waste of his time. So there’s always that. So we will weigh that against whether he should be on our team on Opening Day.”

Oh wait, that’s exactly what he did say.  https://nypost.com/2024/02/17/sports/orioles-will-give-jackson-holliday-every-chance-to-make-team/amp/  If anyone read that as a guarantee that he’d make the team, or even that it was his job to lose, that’s on them.  

Obviously the above comments are from the same presser at the Winter Meetings. When you tell the fans in December that Holliday has a very strong possibility of making the team it builds up hype. Nobody ever said he guaranteed he would be on the team. 

In telling the local media and not the NY Post my top prospect has a very strong chance to make the team fans are naturally going to get their hopes up. 

[Gilbutson]

52 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

I don't think so.   Service time is guaranteed if they keep down long enough.   The pick is a huge gamble.   While interpreters for Japanese megastars may like to gamble,  most GMs don't.   A guaranteed extra year of Holliday is a much safer bet than a chance to win ROY and get the pick.   

This. I will preface this by saying that I too am very disappointed with the news, not only for Holliday, but potentially for Norby should any of these other at best AAAA guys ends up starting games at second over him. 
 

However, I feel like a lot of people here have the opinion that Holliday winning ROY is either a foregone conclusion or anything close to it given a start to the season up here. On the Rangers alone he is facing both Carter and (a now starting the season up) Langford, who both have just as good if not better in my opinion a shot at taking ROY as Holliday does. 
 

Might be forcing myself to look at a glass half full situation right now but just my take. 

Edited March 23 by Gilbutson

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, StottyByNature said:

Fair point, but there is a wide gap between questioning a decision and acting like some grave injustice has been inflicted upon us by a nefarious overlord.  Most of this thread has been the latter. Elias clearly has a vision for this team and so far it has worked extremely well.  Anyone acting like this was some easy, obvious decision is plainly wrong.  

I considered (and agree with) the second point and believe he will be brought up with enough time to make that acclimation by the postseason. 

I've said this before, but some of the negative reaction is not just about this decision. It is a cumulative effect. Odor being left on the roster when younger guys could have been given an opportunity. Frazier same thing. Not bringing up Grayson the year before (before he got hurt), punting on the 2023 offseason and deadline, etc. All of that adds up and I believe that has some fans understandably a little frustrated.

Onto what Elias has proven. It is unquestionable that Elias has proven to be tremendous at rebuilding, developing talent, rebuilding, building a farm, etc. What remains to be seen is if he has the ability to build a championship team. Once we win a championship under his guidance, then he will have earned what you are ready to give him. Until then, we have to see where this goes. 

What is obvious is that we now are having a logjam and there are too many position players who are deserving of chances, but simply not enough spots for them all to fit.

[Billy F-Face3]

1 minute ago, StottyByNature said:

  Anyone acting like this was some easy, obvious decision is plainly wrong.  

I figured this would happen among a number of fans because of how emoti9anllu charged posts were and how people were totally buying into the prospect hype with the way they acted like they thought of him as if he was already a hall of fame player in their posts. When he hasn't even taken a Major League AB.

To borrow a metaphor... People around here love the shiny new things and don't fully appreciate that old familiar yet reliable vehicle that still gets you everywhere you want to go.  (Good example is any discussions about Outfield roster personnel or 3B.)

I remember a guy who bought a brand new C8 Corvette the moment it came out. It was shiny and new and the next big thing. Then the engine died in it because metal got in the cylinders after the Active Fuel Management system caused issues and triggered the whole problem. So, he had to go back to his old under appreciated beat up car that still drove reliably. The new Corvette failed to live up to the hype. 

I'm not saying this about Holliday. I'm saying that in general people don't appreciate the known commodities enough.

[OnlyOneOriole]

Bad BAD move imo.  The excitement for the team and for the fans imo is worth a few wins alone in the first month if JH starts OD.

 

It would give the team a sense of energy that you just don't get by starting a JAG.  IMO this casts a pall on the entire team, which has been dominating the entire pre season.  Same goes for Mayo getting cut.  Heston too.

 

I sincerely hope that they rethink this move(s).  Imo it could completely derail the momo this team has.  Team psyche is worth a lot. And this does not help it.

Edited March 23 by OnlyOneOriole

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I figured this would happen among a number of fans because of how emoti9anllu charged posts were and how people were totally buying into the prospect hype with the way they acted like they thought of him as if he was already a hall of fame player in their posts. When he hasn't even taken a Major League AB.

To borrow a metaphor... People around here love the shiny new things and don't fully appreciate that old familiar yet reliable vehicle that still gets you everywhere you want to go.  (Good example is any discussions about Outfield roster personnel or 3B.)

I remember a guy who bought a brand new C8 Corvette the moment it came out. It was shiny and new and the next big thing. Then the engine died in it because metal got in the cylinders after the Active Fuel Management system caused issues and triggered the whole problem. So, he had to go back to his old under appreciated beat up car that still drove reliably. The new Corvette failed to live up to the hype. 

I'm not saying this about Holliday. I'm saying that in general people don't appreciate the known commodities enough.

The guy never heard of a warranty?  Who goes from an old beat up car to a new Corvette?  Who keeps the old beat up car after getting a new Corvette?

Your story has more holes than Frazier's defense.

[StottyByNature]

6 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I've said this before, but some of the negative reaction is not just about this decision. It is a cumulative effect. Odor being left on the roster when younger guys could have been given an opportunity. Frazier same thing. Not bringing up Grayson the year before (before he got hurt), punting on the 2023 offseason and deadline, etc. All of that adds up and I believe that has some fans understandably a little frustrated.

Onto what Elias has proven. It is unquestionable that Elias has proven to be tremendous at rebuilding, developing talent, rebuilding, building a farm, etc. What remains to be seen is if he has the ability to build a championship team. Once we win a championship under his guidance, then he will have earned what you are ready to give him. Until then, we have to see where this goes. 

What is obvious is that we now are having a logjam and there are too many position players who are deserving of chances, but simply not enough spots for them all to fit.

Again a reasonable point.  I suppose I look at all of the gnashing of teeth over Odor/Frazier with a broader lens. Much of it was at the behest of Henderson, Westburg, and Ortiz.  Yes, I was itching to see the kids play, too.  Henderson is the reigning ROY.  Westburg is now in a great spot to take over a full-time role after some adjustment time.  Ortiz was traded.  What did we lose in that waiting?  Should we have gone for it in 2022 instead of trading Mancini and Lopez?  In retrospect I think he clearly made the right choice.  Was 2023 not a resounding success?  Rodriguez was certainly an unfortunate confluence of events.  Now, if a guy like Stowers ultimately gets DFA'd then I will agree that the logjam was not addressed properly.  Until then, depth is never a bad thing.

I suppose I look at Elias' job (and ultimate success) differently.  In baseball, I believe you need to get to the playoffs (preferable as a high seed) and then it's a bit of a crapshoot from there.  Hitters go hot and cold, though having an ace and a couple of lights-out bullpen options really boosts your chances.  Elias addressed the need for an ace with a bullet.  I have my doubts about the bullpen and wish he had done more/hope he will do more there. 

One thing not mentioned here is we have no idea how much money Elias has been given to spend.  While we may have "punted" on an offseason, do we really believe that he was told to spend money and just chose not to? 

He has a calculated, measured approach and I think that is more likely to lead to sustained success even if it means asking for some patience.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Just Regular said:

And even ABs vs. LHP at the expense of McCann.

I've thought one rookie will get a clean shot at 600 PA to challenge for that sweet sweet bonus pick, and I have a feeling Cowser will be in even against Patrick Sandoval.

I note neither McDermott or Povich in today's list as the Arms list gets composed for starting out, but I could have missed if they were reassigned earlier.

They were reassigned several days back. 

[Frobby]

42 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Obviously the above comments are from the same presser at the Winter Meetings. When you tell the fans in December that Holliday has a very strong possibility of making the team it builds up hype. Nobody ever said he guaranteed he would be on the team. 

In telling the local media and not the NY Post my top prospect has a very strong chance to make the team fans are naturally going to get their hopes up. 

I happened to find the quote in the NY Post.  I’m sure the local media had it too.   It’s also ten weeks later, at the start of camp.  I’m fine with both statements. 

[Bemorewins]

12 minutes ago, StottyByNature said:

Again a reasonable point.  I suppose I look at all of the gnashing of teeth over Odor/Frazier with a broader lens. Much of it was at the behest of Henderson, Westburg, and Ortiz.  Yes, I was itching to see the kids play, too.  Henderson is the reigning ROY.  Westburg is now in a great spot to take over a full-time role after some adjustment time.  Ortiz was traded.  What did we lose in that waiting?  Should we have gone for it in 2022 instead of trading Mancini and Lopez?  In retrospect I think he clearly made the right choice.  Was 2023 not a resounding success?  Rodriguez was certainly an unfortunate confluence of events.  Now, if a guy like Stowers ultimately gets DFA'd then I will agree that the logjam was not addressed properly.  Until then, depth is never a bad thing.

I suppose I look at Elias' job (and ultimate success) differently.  In baseball, I believe you need to get to the playoffs (preferable as a high seed) and then it's a bit of a crapshoot from there.  Hitters go hot and cold, though having an ace and a couple of lights-out bullpen options really boosts your chances.  Elias addressed the need for an ace with a bullet.  I have my doubts about the bullpen and wish he had done more/hope he will do more there. 

One thing not mentioned here is we have no idea how much money Elias has been given to spend.  While we may have "punted" on an offseason, do we really believe that he was told to spend money and just chose not to? 

He has a calculated, measured approach and I think that is more likely to lead to sustained success even if it means asking for some patience.

You make some very compelling arguments in terms of why Elias should be trusted.

I agree that depth is great and necessary in order to survive a 162 regular season. The lack of it is what did the Yankees in last year and will probably be their downfall again this season. But what we have is far beyond good depth, it is an overabundance of position player prospects and not enough pitching talent to match or even come close. The ledger is imbalanced.

As far as expectations for this season go, I will not be satisfied/view this season as a success if we make it to the playoffs and get swept (AND we fail to address obvious needs at the deadline). Yes all of those things are true in baseball in that there is very high variance due to the factors that you mentioned. But we are allowed to put ourselves in the best position possible (something we did not do at last year's deadline by adding useless players in Flaherty and Fujinama).

You are also correct in that the failure to spend in the past was a decision that probably was beyond his decision to make. Hopefully going forward with new ownership, this will not be the same level of hinderance.

[forphase1]

51 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I've said this before, but some of the negative reaction is not just about this decision. It is a cumulative effect. Odor being left on the roster when younger guys could have been given an opportunity. Frazier same thing. Not bringing up Grayson the year before (before he got hurt), punting on the 2023 offseason and deadline, etc. All of that adds up and I believe that has some fans understandably a little frustrated.

Onto what Elias has proven. It is unquestionable that Elias has proven to be tremendous at rebuilding, developing talent, rebuilding, building a farm, etc. What remains to be seen is if he has the ability to build a championship team. Once we win a championship under his guidance, then he will have earned what you are ready to give him. Until then, we have to see where this goes. 

What is obvious is that we now are having a logjam and there are too many position players who are deserving of chances, but simply not enough spots for them all to fit.

I'm out of rep, so let's just say I agree with all of this. 

[Too Tall]

So, for all practical purposes, we are going to go (start) with a team composition very similar to the one that won 101 games last year. Not my preference (I was sure Holliday would make the 26) but I am trying to see some logic. I think we will upgrade on an incremental basis depending on performance, health, and perhaps trades. I do not understand the prespring Holliday hype coupled with the Holliday performance ending with today's decision. Hopefully more reasoning will come out. This year's version of "blast off?" Maybe there are times Elias catches that dreaded JA speak disease and would be better off saying nothing. Note - Don't get me all excited about getting a new toy for Christmas and then ........ Well you get the picture.