A philosophical question re offense and defense

[Roy Firestone]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Would be nice if Cooper had something to say about Mayo’s defense.  We know he can dominate AAA offensively.  Cooper doesn’t need to tell us that.  

Mayo has a total of 4 errors this year. From eye witness accounts, one was weather related, Mayo slipped in the rain trying to pick up a ball...another one was ruled an error when most scorers saw it as a very tough play and should've been ruled a hit. The other two were errors. Mayo has soft hands and great reflexes and a  great arm...he could play a solid third base(but WESTBURG isn't going anywhere ) he could play 1b, or even the outfield.I think he might end up as a DH.

[now]

It's a trick question, since a run (A) is a run (B) is a run (C).

That said, chicks and I dig the long ball (and also the base hit).

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Roy Firestone said:

Mayo has a total of 4 errors this year. From eye witness accounts, one was weather related, Mayo slipped in the rain trying to pick up a ball...another one was ruled an error when most scorers saw it as a very tough play and should've been ruled a hit. The other two were errors. Mayo has soft hands and great reflexes and a  great arm...he could play a solid third base(but WESTBURG isn't going anywhere ) he could play 1b, or even the outfield.I think he might end up as a DH.

I’m not dissing Mayo’s defense today.  I’m just wishing Cooper would have given BA’s views on his defense this year.  He made 3 errors the first weekend I think, so obviously he’s settled down in term of big mistakes.  That’s only part of assessing defense.  I appreciate your opinions but I’d rather hear it from objective sources who are professional evaluators.  

[Jim'sKid26]

16 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right.

I'll try and use smaller words.

I was asking him if he would take a player like Jeter. 

Jeter was a guy that played baseball for the Yankees who was not good at defense but was good at hitting the ball.

He played Shortstop which is one of the positions he was talking about.

Most folks think Jeter was really good overall even with being bad at defense.

@RZNJ and @Can_of_corn I appreciate the dialog.

I think Jeter could have been a solid defender had he not been asked to play SS. So the quote above, (forgive me for picking a nit), is not entirely accurate. I don't think Jeter was "bad at defense." He was just not +10 at SS. There are a couple of plays that Jeter made that standout to me as showing outstanding defensive skill and situational awareness as well as athleticism. His issue is that he was not gifted with either the arm or the quickness to excel at SS. That coupled with the fact that A-Rod was a much better defensive SS than Jeter when A-Rod joined the MFYs makes me wonder is Jeter might have been a superb 2B or CF but was too stubborn to make the move. 

[Sports Guy]

I don’t want any of them.  
 

1 win is about 10 runs.  In these scenarios, the player is producing zero wins.

[Bemorewins]

15 hours ago, Roy Firestone said:

Mayo has a total of 4 errors this year. From eye witness accounts, one was weather related, Mayo slipped in the rain trying to pick up a ball...another one was ruled an error when most scorers saw it as a very tough play and should've been ruled a hit. The other two were errors. Mayo has soft hands and great reflexes and a  great arm...he could play a solid third base(but WESTBURG isn't going anywhere ) he could play 1b, or even the outfield.I think he might end up as a DH.

Most likely it will be DH or RF, with Kjerstad occupying the other spot. I don't think Mountcastle is going anywhere anytime soon so 1B will probably be occupied. 

[Frobby]

I’ll now answer my own question.  Even though these three players are theoretically equivalent from a run differential standpoint, I would not want the player who’s -10 on defense.  That’s because I believe that poor defense bothers pitchers, causes them to try to do too much, and demoralizes them.  So maybe the fielder isn’t “responsible” in a WAR calculation when the rattled pitcher serves up gopher ball or walks the next guy after a poor defensive play, but there’s cause and effect there IMO.  So, give me someone who plays at least decent defense.   And, I think the Orioles feel the same way.  

[Sanfran327]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’ll now answer my own question.  Even though these three players are theoretically equivalent from a run differential standpoint, I would not want the player who’s -10 on defense.  That’s because I believe that poor defense bothers pitchers, causes them to try to do too much, and demoralizes them.  So maybe the fielder isn’t “responsible” in a WAR calculation when the rattled pitcher serves up gopher ball or walks the next guy after a poor defensive play, but there’s cause and effect there IMO.  So, give me someone who plays at least decent defense.   And, I think the Orioles feel the same way.  

Do you weight all defensive positions equally?

I like to think of Manny Ramirez in conversations like these. He really should have been a full time DH, but they also had Ortiz, so that made it hard. LF in Fenway isn't that difficult (you probably remember, he played RF in Cleveland, but no way they could put him out there in Boston) and he did actually have a knack of throwing out baserunners, but he was overall a buffoon defensively. 

Then again, he was worth a little more than 10 runs offensively. 

[BRobinsonfan]

Answer to philosophical question:  I hit, therefore I am. 

[Frobby]

31 minutes ago, Sanfran327 said:

Do you weight all defensive positions equally?

I do, because the +10, 0, -10 bakes in the position they play.  A LF whose ten runs worse than the average LF hurts you just as much as the SS who’s 10 runs worse than the average SS.  Of course, a -10 LF has to be REALLY bad, since he gets fewer chances than a SS gets.  But the impact is the same.  

And obviously, in my hypothetical the offensive/defensive surplus/deficit zeroes out, but it doesn’t for most players.  
 

[Sanfran327]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I do, because the +10, 0, -10 bakes in the position they play.  A LF whose ten runs worse than the average LF hurts you just as much as the SS who’s 10 runs worse than the average SS.  Of course, a -10 LF has to be REALLY bad, since he gets fewer chances than a SS gets.  But the impact is the same.  

And obviously, in my hypothetical the offensive/defensive surplus/deficit zeroes out, but it doesn’t for most players.  
 

Good points.

I don't disagree with you that I think the O's put a premium on good defense. Lots of roster decisions over the last 3 years to support that. But I think as they continue evolve from development to contention to championship aspirations (I'd like to think that we're firmly in the latter), that pendulum might shift a bit for some players. Fortunately, our defense is already very strong up the middle (and really throughout the infield), but corner OF defense might take a hit if Kjerstad or Mayo plays a lot out there. Obv Cowswer is a stud defensively next to Mullins, so that really only leaves 1 spot to be potentially below average.