TT: How bad are the Orioles?

[Babypowder]

9 hours ago, Black Bat said:

To be more fair, a lot of posters here have seen it coming.  I don't believe the SP was ever predicted to collapse as it has recently, but you have some inflated contracts for guys that IMO don't fit into what the O's are trying to accomplish.  Lot of band-aids in recent years have prevented a change that is needed for future competitiveness which has compounded residual effects through losing draft picks.

As Tony-OH eluded, this direction to sustain winning at all costs may have been directed by the owner but nonetheless, this is where we are.  I was one of very few if any that was lobbying strong last season to sell when we were in contention.  Most everyone here claimed I was silly to propose such ideas but at the same time, no one really made a case that the team was truly a strong contender to advance that year or in the near future with the lineup being as it was. 

I'm not at all surprised to see this team struggling although after May's start, it is startling in the speed of deterioration.  This team is still not built to win in October (which was my premise last year) and needs a fundamental change in approach toward what Buck wants: situational hitting, defense, and pitching with an emphasis on strong relief.  I still see a potential SP staff to include Gausman, Bundy, Tillman, Sedlock and Harvey and young players moving up in Cisco, Hays, and others combined with Schoop and Mancini today with potential prospects in trades for Machado, Britton among others.  This could lead to acquiring players to execute Buck's wishes in playing style while riding out those remaining bloated contracts and actually filling them with players who fit the desired scheme.  A lot of questions need answering before that is realized but it's attainable with a deep pool of relievers already in place and being groomed. 

Bottom line, I think the team needs a change in direction.  Sure, this would take time but that's why I lobbied to start this last season.  The sooner you start, the sooner you can realize your goals.

As has been pointed out already, my post was sarcastic.

[maybenxtyr]

I don't recall seeing a team come from where they were, along with expectations for this season collapse this completely. All aspects of this team is underperforming.

[Sessh]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

I don't agree with most of this.   Buck leaves his starters in too long?    We routinely rank at the bottom of IP/start.     There is only so much you can ask a bullpen to do, if you don't want their arms to fall off.    Sure there are days when I feel like Buck left a starter out there too long by a batter or two, or even a whole inning.    But you have to view those decisions in light of the total innings burden the bullpen is bearing.

Much the same point on how Buck uses his high leverage guys. You can only go to the well so often.    Buck's pen led the league in win probability added last year, and for 2012-16 combined.    I'd say he's gotten plenty of bang for his buck (no pun intended) out of his better bullpen guys over the years.

 

Givens had only been used twice in the last two weeks, yet we go to Yacabonis and the game gets out of hand immediately. Bleier hadn't been used in two days, but no surprise it was Castro that settled things down since he's been good in all four appearances. The bullpen is burdened because the ones building this roster suck at it. All the quality depth we should have was either traded away for nothing or just released. Besides, leaving starters in too long has been Buck's MO since he's been here. Even when we had Chen, he did it all the time and there was nothing wrong with the bullpen then. He is not good with managing starters and knowing when to take them out.

 Maybe if Buck and DD hadn't decided we didn't need any quality minor league depth and traded it all away for nothing, we wouldn't be having all these problems. Same goes for releasing Gonzalez and Triggs, no excuse for that. It's these decisions that have landed us in this mess in the first place. Showalter is just as responsible for it as DD is, so if he doesn't have much to work with, it's largely his own fault. Injuries happen and teams built well are able to overcome it because they have quality depth; we don't. I know everyone here likes to look the other way on the fact that Showalter is pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes when it comes to personnel, but he has helped to build this "team" we see now and it seems like that team has now given up on him just like the team in Texas did.

[oriolediehard]

On 6/14/2017 at 11:31 AM, Can_of_corn said:

Summer?  It's going to be a long five years. (Five years was my version of being optimistic)

It will start when we do a fire sale for prospects by end of July.

[allquixotic]

The Orioles are really, REALLY bad. But as usual with the Orioles, they will wait too long to rectify the situation.

Buck waits too long and leaves starters in until they blow the game every time.

Management waits too long to have a fire sale and try to rebuild, and if they do try to rebuild at all, they'll be very moderate about it, only trading away a small number of insignificant pieces for some insignificant pieces back. When they go to trade our valuable pieces, they'll be worth almost nothing from having a trash season or hurt.

This whole club has the stench of just not caring about their on-field performance anymore. That's the mindset we had during the 14 years of losing, and I think it's coming back around for another 14 years or more.

[Three Run Homer]

11 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Sure does explain a lot now doesn't it. 

All this Duquette is an idiot and Buck forgot how to manage crap is so out of place. I'm not saying Duquette is perfect, but this team was setup to do well if it stayed healthy and players performed to their career track records. It was not set up, nor is any team to have it's top two starting pitchers by track record underperform badly, lose it's closer for most of the season, and have it's #3 hitter bat under .220 all season. 

I do think the window closed and the Orioles should retool, but this has more to do with the injuries and poor performance than any horrible management philosophy.

I think there is plenty of blame that we can give Duquette for gutting the farm system and leaving the Orioles with a bleak future, but that doesn't have much to do with why this year's team is suddenly playing like the worst team in baseball.  This team was built to compete this year and next, and then apres moi le deluge.  If Machado, Gausman and Britton come back healthy later this year or next, this same group of players could play like contenders again (I have no hope for Tillman).  

[sportsfan8703]

2 hours ago, Three Run Homer said:

I think there is plenty of blame that we can give Duquette for gutting the farm system and leaving the Orioles with a bleak future, but that doesn't have much to do with why this year's team is suddenly playing like the worst team in baseball.  This team was built to compete this year and next, and then apres moi le deluge.  If Machado, Gausman and Britton come back healthy later this year or next, this same group of players could play like contenders again (I have no hope for Tillman).  

Whatever Manny has decided in his own mind is not working on the field.  Why can't we ever put up 4 or 5 early in the game?  I know the SP is the worst in baseball but the offense is killing us too.  

[OriolesMagic83]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Whatever Manny has decided in his own mind is not working on the field.  Why can't we ever put up 4 or 5 early in the game?  I know the SP is the worst in baseball but the offense is killing us too.  

I wonder if all the media attention has gone to Manny's head.  He's was projected to be in the race for MVP, some experts were saying he might be the best player in baseball, and now he's "the face of baseball".  Maybe he's already counting his megamillions from his next contract.

I'm afraid what's going to happen next year.  Dan will say they need to keep Manny if the O's are going to make a run at the playoffs.  O's will either be in the playoff race or Manny will get hurt, and the O's will get a 2nd round pick for him.

 

[pastorfan]

11 hours ago, maybenxtyr said:

I don't recall seeing a team come from where they were, along with expectations for this season collapse this completely. All aspects of this team is underperforming.

I'm not sure I recall such an early collapse like this either. Zach being out has surely cost us four to five games, but the starting pitching is a mess. I have to think some of it is mental. I'm not sure there is any way out of this. 

[Frobby]

15 hours ago, birdwatcher55 said:

You have to look at the whole body of work and what he brought to the clubhouse. When things went bad, who took on a leadership role? Who do some of the new guys look to now? Clubhouse chemistry seems missing. And in my opinion, this club has quit on Buck.

Absurd.    They aren't pitching well.    End of story.   

[Camden_yardbird]

37 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Absurd.    They aren't pitching well.    End of story.   

To be fair they are not hitting particularly well either.  But the pitching has been historically bad.  None of the fringe types Duquette brought in have worked out. Not a one.  And on top of that Gausman has regressed to Mike Pelfrey status.

As to how bad is this team?  

Somewhere around a 70-90 record when it's all said and done?

[Frobby]

On 6/16/2017 at 6:53 PM, birdwatcher55 said:

And in my opinion, this club has quit on Buck.

 

On 6/16/2017 at 10:16 PM, allquixotic said:

 

This whole club has the stench of just not caring about their on-field performance anymore. That's the mindset we had during the 14 years of losing, and I think it's coming back around for another 14 years or more.

So did the team unquit and start caring over the weekend?

I'm always amazed how quick people are to accuse a team of quitting when they're not playing well.    This team has earned more respect than that.    And I'll say that even if they end up having a losing season.    

[FlipTheBird]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

 

So did the team unquit and start caring over the weekend?

I'm always amazed how quick people are to accuse a team of quitting when they're not playing well.    This team has earned more respect than that.    And I'll say that even if they end up having a losing season.    

And what are the signs of the guys "quitting?" No one that ever accuses the team of quitting offers any evidence other than their own half-baked assertions. Does Adam Jones need to throw a cooler in anger to show them that he's not happy with losing? I don't get it, either.

[webbrick2010]

36 minutes ago, FlipTheBird said:

And what are the signs of the guys "quitting?" No one that ever accuses the team of quitting offers any evidence other than their own half-baked assertions. Does Adam Jones need to throw a cooler in anger to show them that he's not happy with losing? I don't get it, either.

I just like to see max effort/hustle and I think we get it from just about every player except for Manny. Yesterday the Mancini hustle triple and the Smith hustle double were a pleasure to watch. They both ran  very hard out of the box and were rewarded with an extra base.

[osfan83]

Do you think they have a schedule on which days they will quit and which days they will try hard? Do all the players quit or try hard on the same day or do they stagger it? Do some players quit for 3 innings of a game and then try hard for the rest?