Video of Altuve

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

As to no. 1, of course you are right, it’s way worse than a mere cheating scandal.   But it’s really more a commentary on society at the time, rather than a black eye on baseball in particular.    I mean, the US armed forces weren’t integrated until a year after baseball was.  In many states, public schools weren’t integrated until 7+ years after MLB integrated.  Etc.

As to collusion, I think it’s morally at least as bad and quite arguably worse than the cheating scandal, but it didn’t cause fans to doubt whether the outcomes of games were fairly achieved.   That’s really what I’m getting at here.    The things you’re raising are really on a whole different spectrum.   

On the same spectrum I’m talking about is the steroids scandal.     
 

Dodgers fans have to be beyond pissed off right now over losing the two straight World Series to the Astros and Red Sox. I don't think cheating was the difference against the Red Sox. But the Astro series that went 7 games, who knows if that turns out differently if the Astros weren't cheating. 

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

As to no. 1, of course you are right, it’s way worse than a mere cheating scandal.   But it’s really more a commentary on society at the time, rather than a black eye on baseball in particular.    I mean, the US armed forces weren’t integrated until a year after baseball was.  In many states, public schools weren’t integrated until 7+ years after MLB integrated.  Etc.

As to collusion, I think it’s morally at least as bad and quite arguably worse than the cheating scandal, but it didn’t cause fans to doubt whether the outcomes of games were fairly achieved.   That’s really what I’m getting at here.    The things you’re raising are really on a whole different spectrum.   

On the same spectrum I’m talking about is the steroids scandal.     
 

Not to get off topic here but I'm pretty positive blacks were fighting for us in both World Wars.  Maybe not FULLY integrated to high officer levels but that becomes semantics when you take into consideration that there were blacks on the front lines giving their lives.  

That said, let's assume your statement is correct.  If so, it's sad that baseball, something in comparison meaningless in importance when compared to armed forces, was the first to show the way.  Don't get me wrong, it's GREAT that baseball, Jackie Robinson and Branch Rickey paved the way and opened up societies eyes but it's sad that it took that long.  And it's sad that, as important as baseball is to some, that it was baseball that had to take that stride before anything else.

And correct, it didn't cause fans to doubt whether the outcomes of games were fairly achieved...but again, way easier to point fingers at guys we see every day instead of whoever the Indians owner was in '85.  But fans then should have doubted whether or not that their team was doing their best to win.  I mean, if you're a Yankees fan back then and you come to find out that your team doesn't get Carlton Fisk because Steinbrenner is the ringleader in organizing the owners in order to keep salaries down...well, it doesn't even get to a stage where you're allowed to wonder if the outcome of a game is fairly achieved.  The owners don't allow it to because they're too preoccupied with sticking it to the players.  

But I get what you're saying, you're talking about the on field play and what happens between the lines.  Even then, I'm not sure this is worse than the Black Sox.  

[Moose Milligan]

15 minutes ago, Uli2001 said:

Someone pointed out that Chapman's face shows he knew.

Oh come on.  Again, people wanting to see what they want to see.  I'm not saying you are, but people inferring that Chapman's smirk is somehow knowing that the Astros were cheating is absurd.

Dude hung a slider that was belt high and out over the plate.  You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that that pitch usually gets hammered.  Altuve can do that not knowing it was coming.

9 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Dodgers fans have to be beyond pissed off right now over losing the two straight World Series to the Astros and Red Sox. I don't think cheating was the difference against the Red Sox. But the Astro series that went 7 games, who knows if that turns out differently if the Astros weren't cheating. 

Maybe the Dodgers were cheating, too.  I haven't been reading every article and every tweet but it's been my belief that if teams are being quiet about this, they've probably got something to hide and don't want anyone looking at them.  As of yet, I haven't seen any statements from the Dodgers about how outraged they are, etc.  If I haven't, it's because I haven't looked in the right places.

[Ripken]

Manfred really took the coward way out of this.  There should be player suspensions all over the place.

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, Ripken said:

Manfred really took the coward way out of this.  There should be player suspensions all over the place.

I don't necessarily disagree, but tell me where and when you start and stop player suspensions.  Which players for how long, etc.  

[sportsfan8703]

19 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Dude hung a slider that was belt high and out over the plate.  You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that that pitch usually gets hammered.  Altuve can do that not knowing it was coming.

1.  It really helps when you’re not gearing up to hit a 100 mph FB. 

2.  If it didn’t help, they wouldn’t have done it. 

3.  Bonds never failed a drug test. 

MLB has become cycling. Just a sport where everyone is cheating and the best cheaters win. 

[atomic]

27 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Oh come on.  Again, people wanting to see what they want to see.  I'm not saying you are, but people inferring that Chapman's smirk is somehow knowing that the Astros were cheating is absurd.

Dude hung a slider that was belt high and out over the plate.  You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that that pitch usually gets hammered.  Altuve can do that not knowing it was coming.

Maybe the Dodgers were cheating, too.  I haven't been reading every article and every tweet but it's been my belief that if teams are being quiet about this, they've probably got something to hide and don't want anyone looking at them.  As of yet, I haven't seen any statements from the Dodgers about how outraged they are, etc.  If I haven't, it's because I haven't looked in the right places.

Manfred threatened teams that if they made any comments on this their punishment would be worse than the Astro's.  

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

20 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

Maybe the Dodgers were cheating, too.  I haven't been reading every article and every tweet but it's been my belief that if teams are being quiet about this, they've probably got something to hide and don't want anyone looking at them.  As of yet, I haven't seen any statements from the Dodgers about how outraged they are, etc.  If I haven't, it's because I haven't looked in the right places.

I've thought about this point too because it's likely that it wasn't only the Astros and Red Sox cheating. Maybe other teams were more sophisticated and not clanging trashcan lids to tip off their hitters on what pitch was coming. 

Perhaps the Dodgers are running their own cleanup operation at the moment.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

9 minutes ago, Ripken said:

Manfred really took the coward way out of this.  There should be player suspensions all over the place.

Well if more evidence of cheating emergences I think that is all but guaranteed. I also don't like Manfred very much so if this got him axed as commissioner I wouldn't complain. 

[Enjoy Terror]

28 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

As of yet, I haven't seen any statements from the Dodgers about how outraged they are, etc.  If I haven't, it's because I haven't looked in the right places.

You haven’t looked. Manfred told all teams not to comment.

[Enjoy Terror]

11 minutes ago, Ripken said:

Manfred really took the coward way out of this.  There should be player suspensions all over the place.

Think about that. Suspending Ken Giles, Derek Fisher, and Teoscar Hernandez affects who exactly?

If you guessed the Blue Jays, that’s correct. You’d be punishing the Blue Jays.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Just now, Enjoy Terror said:

Think about that. Suspending Ken Giles, Derek Fisher, and Teoscar Hernandez affects who exactly?

If you guessed the Blue Jays, that’s correct. You’d be punishing the Blue Jays.

[atomic]

21 minutes ago, Ripken said:

Manfred really took the coward way out of this.  There should be player suspensions all over the place.

Sammy Sosa got suspended 8 games for accidentally using a bat, he meant for batting practice , to be used in a game that had some cork in it. 

Chris Sabo got 7 game suspension for using someone else's bat (He doesn't remember whom) that had cork in it.  

Craig Nettles got 10 games for using a bat he received from a fan that had 8 super balls in it. 

There is plenty of precedent for suspending players for cheating. Even minor cheating. 

[Enjoy Terror]

2 minutes ago, atomic said:

Sammy Sosa got suspended 8 games for accidentally using a bat, he meant for batting practice , to be used in a game that had some cork in it. 

Chris Sabo got 7 game suspension for using someone else's bat (He doesn't remember whom) that had cork in it.  

Craig Nettles got 10 games for using a bat he received from a fan that had 8 super balls in it. 

There is plenty of precedent for suspending players for cheating. Even minor cheating. 

No precedent for suspensions two years after the crime.

[atomic]

7 minutes ago, Enjoy Terror said:

No precedent for suspensions two years after the crime.

So you are saying if a baseball player was found throwing baseball games because he had a deal with organized crime but the cheating ended two years earlier he wouldn't be suspended?  I don't believe that for a second.