O'S may return to the GG defense of the 70's

[wildcard]

Just to pin down this feat of logical gymnastics:

1. Izzy has won a GG (in 2004).

2. There is some (undefined) chance that Izzy was as good in 2009 as when he won the GG in 2004.

3. This is more probable because Izturis doesn't hit well.

4. Hardy is not quite as good as Izzy who once won a GG and who may have been as good in 2009 as he was when he won a GG (because he doesn't hit much).

5. Therefore, saying Hardy is not as good as Izturis is a compliment.

Well I am glad we settled that.

[Phil Beckett]

Well I am glad we settled that.

Finality is a beautiful thing.

[wildcard]

We had 4 hall of famers on that team right? Or 3.

's

Yes but only one figures into this discussion. Brooks. No one is saying much about Frank defense which was very good but I don't think he won a GG as an Oriole. And Palmer. No one has talking about his defense so far.Eddie was on the 77-79 teams. I think he won a GG at one point. This is all from memory. I could look it up if it becomes important to the discussion.

[Phil Beckett]

's

Yes but only one figures into this discussion. Brooks. No one is saying much about Frank defense which was very good but I don't think he won a GG as an Oriole. And Palmer. No one has talking about his defense so far.Eddie was on the 77-79 teams. I think he won a GG at one point. This is all from memory. I could look it up if it becomes important to the discussion.

It kinda gives a perspective of the difference of a very VERY good team to ...this team. And also doesnt really address the idea of team defense. Which is more important that individual defense. Nor does it address playing defense as a winning organization. Frank may not of won many GG's but heck...something about having FRANK ROBINSON out there ...well, that says it all, really. Even if Scott is a better fielder! LOL

[DrungoHazewood]

Reread the OP. I said O's may return to GG not the have returned. I say the combination could give the O's the edge. Not it has or it will.

Nothing wrong with recognizing that the defense is playing well. Not just well but very well. The few games that Reynolds has played first and Andino as played 3rd have been such an improvement it should be noted.

Did you notice the O's have won 8 of 12? The defense has played an important role.

It is true that "crack smokingly unlikely" and "may" could have some overlap.

By both defensive efficiency and UZR the O's are among the worst defensive teams in major league baseball.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I didn't say nor do I believe anyone else has said that Hardy is better than Belanger, Jones better than Blair, Reynolds better than Powell, or Andino better than Brooks. My point was that the current team is playing good defense and that may be an asset that helps them if they can keep it up. I brought up the teams of the 70's because that is when the O's used to win GGs. If the current team can play as well as they are now for a whole season they might be GG winners also.

It's easy to misunderstand when the opening comparison is between one of the better defensive teams in 140 years of professional baseball history and one of the 3-4 worst defenses of 2011.

[wildcard]

I'm not particularly worried about Hardy's defense, though it hasn't been spectacular. I hold out hope that the likely regression to offensive norm will be contrasted by a regression to his defensive norm. Other than that, Reynolds has looked fine, Andino has looked fine. But to what end? We've had to sacrifice a ton of offensive value to get there - Reynolds is an average-ish 1B (all told) because of his terrible contact rate and Andino a sub-par 3B (all told).

I think we should look at the team as a whole. If Jones, Nick, Hardy, and Reynolds are the thumpers. I would hope that Wieters is managed in a way to allow him to become more of any offensive force. If the O's get a DH that is a 850 OPS or better that would help the offense. That leaves 3rd base, 2nd base and leftfield. The O's need to have a top of the order, high OBP guy from at least one of those positions. That could be Roberts. But might not be. If Andino could find a way to hit righties as well as lefties then he could be a good defensively 3b that hits for OBP. Its a big if but it is a possibility. Leftfield is another position where power or speed could help the offense.

Not every player has to be a thumper. The O's need to add some guys that have good OBP. I don't think the traditional power position shouldn't be thought of as excluding an OBP guy.

[wildcard]

It is true that "crack smokingly unlikely" and "may" could have some overlap.

By both defensive efficiency and UZR the O's are among the worst defensive teams in major league baseball.

When? This year? I agree whole heartedly. Reynolds at 3rd was terrible. So was Andino at 2B until he learned the position. Scott with a bad shoulder wasn't that good in left. Bell at 3rd was......ugh. Overall for the whole season the O's defense has been poor. But if you watch the games, things are changing and this thread is about the way the defense is playing now.

[wildcard]

It's easy to misunderstand when the opening comparison is between one of the better defensive teams in 140 years of professional baseball history and one of the 3-4 worst defenses of 2011.

Yes, you are right. Probably should have approached talking about the better defense the O's are playing in a different way. People tend to simplify. And I am not talking about the defense of the 2011 team as a whole.

[DrungoHazewood]

When? This year? I agree whole heartedly. Reynolds at 3rd was terrible. So was Andino at 2B until he learned the position. Scott with a bad shoulder wasn't that good in left. Bell at 3rd was......ugh. Overall for the whole season the O's defense has been poor. But if you watch the games, things are changing and this thread is about the way the defense is playing now.

For the Orioles to become a great defense they'd need to turn over a bunch of players. Basically they'd need a new and much better fielding left fielder, center fielder, second baseman, and third baseman. And get performances near the top of their abilities from Hardy at short, Nick in right, and Reynolds at first.

There are 20 or 25 current major league teams more likely to have a superior defense in 2012 than the Orioles.

[El Gordo]

For the Orioles to become a great defense they'd need to turn over a bunch of players. Basically they'd need a new and much better fielding left fielder, center fielder, second baseman, and third baseman. And get performances near the top of their abilities from Hardy at short, Nick in right, and Reynolds at first.

There are 20 or 25 current major league teams more likely to have a superior defense in 2012 than the Orioles.

Sign Crisp for CF and move Jones to LF and you have greatly upgraded the OF D. I like what I see from Andino at 3B, if only his bat could play there. Adams might be able to give you close to league average defense with some experiience. He has surprised me with his glove so far,. Noit nearly as bad as I expected.

[Frobby]

Wasnt Davey Johnson a gold glover, too?

Johnson won three Gold Gloves, but he was not as good as Grich (who won four). Statistically, Grich was significantly better, though Davey was certainly very good.

[Lucky Jim]

Sign Crisp for CF and move Jones to LF and you have greatly upgraded the OF D. I like what I see from Andino at 3B, if only his bat could play there. Adams might be able to give you close to league average defense with some experiience. He has surprised me with his glove so far,. Noit nearly as bad as I expected.

I think his bat is MLB-caliber, and maybe better. So if he could play passable defense...

[wildcard]

Roy, that was not even Andino's play at 3rd. It was either the SS or the pitcher that was supposed to cover 3rd depending on the play that had been called.

[byrdz]

That was a nice and neat defensive game last night with Britton dishing up the ground balls, and everyone being on their game, but let's wait til they've done it longer and more consistently.