What If Tejada Is Traded?

[davearm]

In fairness the Marlins do get good TV ratings. The fans' apathy might have more to do w/the stadium formerly known as Joe Robbie Stadium might just be the worst place in all of baseball to watch a ballgame.

Not so long as 100% indoor stadiums like the Metrodome and the Trop are still around.

[/hijack]

[Boca Bird]

I've been to Dolphins Stadium many times and it is a pretty bad place to watch a ballgame, but I do dig the Mermaids :002_sdrool:

[geschinger]

Not so long as 100% indoor stadiums like the Metrodome and the Trop are still around.

[/hijack]

I used to live in FL and have been to many Devil Rays and Marlins home games and the Trop as is a much better place to watch a game. With the sitelines in the lower bowl at the stadium formerly known as Joe Robbie Stadium you have to twist your neck to see if you aren't right behind home plate. In the dog days of summer you can almost guarantee at some point there will be a rain delay. While the Trop is ugly as can be it's a much, much, much more comfortable venue in which to witness a ballgame.

[Boca Bird]

Complete BS. The start of the Tigers rebuilding was being willing to suffer with the youngins even if it meant over 100 losses and are reaping the benefits now. They have those two big signings and while Ordonez is having a decent year the O's more than matched that signing with Tejada. And the O's are getting the same if not more production from their Free Agent catcher.

They overpaid for Tejada yes, but then stopped there, when they had a trade worked out for D Lee and fell too short on the $$$$$. Just close enough to drive you nuts. The guy was in the warehouse. Instead we got Palmeiro (and we know how great that was) . Do I even have to get into Vlad again? Let me guess, you're one of those guys who thought Vlad just "won't come here". Instead we got Sosa, again another brilliant move. You're either afraid to lose ....or afraid to lose money.

"Rather than wait for the market to establish itself, "This team has to overpay NOW If it wants to be a player in the FA market. If it doesn't want to overpay in the FA market, it has to draft the best players and not worry about "signability" like they did with Jared Weaver. Oh that's right, you're excuse for that one was Angelos didn't want to deviate from the slot system.

That draft was the same draft that the Tigers drafted Verlander is the same draft that we drafted, but didn't sign the more signable Wade Townshend. So, its not BS. The Tigers were committed to winning

Are you related to Peter G Angelos by any chance ?

[Boca Bird]

Complete BS. The start of the Tigers rebuilding was being willing to suffer with the youngins even if it meant over 100 losses and are reaping the benefits now. They have those two big signings and while Ordonez is having a decent year the O's more than matched that signing with Tejada. And the O's are getting the same if not more production from their Free Agent catcher.]

They overpaid for Tejada yes, but then stopped there, when they had a trade worked out for D Lee and fell too short on the $$$$$. Just close enough to drive you nuts. The guy was in the warehouse. Instead we got Palmeiro (and we know how great that was) . Do I even have to get into Vlad again? Let me guess, you're one of those guys who thought Vlad just "won't come here". Instead we got Sosa, again another brilliant move. You're either afraid to lose ....or afraid to lose money.

"Rather than wait for the market to establish itself, "This team has to overpay NOW If it wants to be a player in the FA market. If it doesn't want to overpay in the FA market, it has to draft the best players and not worry about "signability" like they did with Jared Weaver. Oh that's right, you're excuse for that one was Angelos didn't want to deviate from the slot system.

That draft was the same draft that the Tigers drafted Verlander is the same draft that we drafted, but didn't sign the more signable Wade Townshend. So, its not BS. The Tigers were committed to winning

Are you related to Peter G Angelos by any chance ?

Sorry don't know why this was double posted ?

[geschinger]

Complete BS. The start of the Tigers rebuilding was being willing to suffer with the youngins even if it meant over 100 losses and are reaping the benefits now. They have those two big signings and while Ordonez is having a decent year the O's more than matched that signing with Tejada. And the O's are getting the same if not more production from their Free Agent catcher.

They overpaid for Tejada yes, but then stopped there, when they had a trade worked out for D Lee and fell too short on the $$$$$. Just close enough to drive you nuts. The guy was in the warehouse. Instead we got Palmeiro (and we know how great that was) . Do I even have to get into Vlad again? Let me guess, you're one of those guys who thought Vlad just "won't come here". Instead we got Sosa, again another brilliant move. You're either afraid to lose ....or afraid to lose money.

"Rather than wait for the market to establish itself, "This team has to overpay NOW If it wants to be a player in the FA market. If it doesn't want to overpay in the FA market, it has to draft the best players and not worry about "signability" like they did with Jared Weaver. Oh that's right, you're excuse for that one was Angelos didn't want to deviate from the slot system.

That draft was the same draft that the Tigers drafted Verlander is the same draft that we drafted, but didn't sign the more signable Wade Townshend. So, its not BS. The Tigers were committed to winning

Are you related to Peter G Angelos by any chance ?

Heh, I wish I was related (or at least had access to some of Angelos' money).

I believe (and I've been somewhat consistent on this point) that vastly overpaying for free agents should not be used to build a team, that it must be done by having a strong farm system (unless you have a Red Sox or Yankees like payroll which is something Baltimore cannot and will not have).

Overpaying for a FA is fine if it's the final piece or two to a contending team which is not a point the Orioles are at by any definition.

You made a statement that the Tigers are successful now because they overpaid for FA. I'm saying that is ridiculous as the O's have done as much if not more in FA in the same time frame as the Tigers have done albeit w/o requiring terrible contracts to do it. The Tigers are doing as well as they are doing because their young pitching is delivering. And that is the same track the Orioles are on. The question is whether or not our young pitching can turn the corner like Detroits has.

[El Gordo]

Complete BS. The start of the Tigers rebuilding was being willing to suffer with the youngins even if it meant over 100 losses and are reaping the benefits now. They have those two big signings and while Ordonez is having a decent year the O's more than matched that signing with Tejada. And the O's are getting the same if not more production from their Free Agent catcher.]

They overpaid for Tejada yes, but then stopped there, when they had a trade worked out for D Lee and fell too short on the $$$$$. Just close enough to drive you nuts. The guy was in the warehouse. Instead we got Palmeiro (and we know how great that was) . Do I even have to get into Vlad again? Let me guess, you're one of those guys who thought Vlad just "won't come here". Instead we got Sosa, again another brilliant move. You're either afraid to lose ....or afraid to lose money.

"Rather than wait for the market to establish itself, "This team has to overpay NOW If it wants to be a player in the FA market. If it doesn't want to overpay in the FA market, it has to draft the best players and not worry about "signability" like they did with Jared Weaver. Oh that's right, you're excuse for that one was Angelos didn't want to deviate from the slot system.

That draft was the same draft that the Tigers drafted Verlander is the same draft that we drafted, but didn't sign the more signable Wade Townshend. So, its not BS. The Tigers were committed to winning

Are you related to Peter G Angelos by any chance ?

Sorry don't know why this was double posted ?

What inside info do you have on why Vlad turned down our offer which was what $5-6 mil. more than he accepted. Would he have come for yet another $5 mil. Or did he go to LAA because he does what his mom tells him and they have a large Hispanic community there. Inquiring minds want to know What's your skinny?

[e16bball]

Complete BS. The start of the Tigers rebuilding was being willing to suffer with the youngins even if it meant over 100 losses and are reaping the benefits now.

To be fair, the Tigers never really lost 100 games with their young core of players. They lost 119 in 2003, but the only real hold-overs from that team are Inge, Monroe, Infante (who played sparingly), Maroth, Bonderman, and German. The Sheltons and Grandersons and Thames(es) and Robertsons and Verlanders didn't come along until the next two years, at the same time as Ordonez and Pudge and Guillen, etc. etc.

If we had sufficient young kids in our own system, maybe we could do the same. Our young pitching depth certainly gives reason for hope that we can find some quality pitchers worth giving a hearty shot in the big leagues. But since Reimold and Markakis are the only young position players looking like they have even a chance at being a big-time ML player, we are in a bit of a quandary. We can go the Tigers route, but we will have more offensive "supplementing" to do than even they did, and I just don't see PA being willing to pay for 2 or 3 or 4 true IMPACT guys for the offense, as well as a big time pitcher.

The problem with the Orioles as they stand right now is that the pitching is still a couple years from being top-notch, but the offense (Mora, Javy, Tejada, etc.) is aging and looks to deteroriate soon. As it stands, by the time our pitching staff is top-notch, our offense will be pitiful.

That's why, sadly, I think we have to trade Tejada. We just don't have the ABILITY to build around him, even if we have the DESIRE. We need to get some real hitters in the organization that can come up along with the pitching, and allow us to see what holes we need to fill after next season with FAs and trades and whatnot. Guys like Wood, Kendrick, etc. would join with Markakis and Reimold to become our equivalent of Shelton, Granderson, etc. etc. We could have them grow along with Penn, Loewen, DCab, Liz, Olsen, Erbe, etc. and have a core of potentially great players. Additionally, when we find out which of our prospects washes out, we will know just who we need to bring in, just like the Tigers did.

On a side note, I think trading Tejada would be devastating to the casual fan. He is extraordinarily popular to fans who don't follow every at-bat and every fluctuation in OPS. He may have worn out some of his welcome here at the OH, but to most fans he is the face of the team and by far the best player we have (both of which are clearly true, it bears mentioning). To move him for a couple guys named Nick, Howie, Erick, or Ervin would be really demoralizing to a lot of O's fans, despite their sparkling K/BB ratios or home/road splits. Not saying that they're right, just saying that sometimes people here forget that most Orioles fans aren't full-fledged baseball scientists...

[Boca Bird]

What inside info do you have on why Vlad turned down our offer which was what $5-6 mil. more than he accepted. Would he have come for yet another $5 mil. Or did he go to LAA because he does what his mom tells him and they have a large Hispanic community there. Inquiring minds want to know What's your skinny?

Inside info ? The Orioles offered 6 yrs and 78 million. The Angels hold an option for the 6th year that brings the total to 85 million. The only way that The O's contract would be more is the unlikely scenario that Vlad doesn't play the 6th season. Then there is a 3 million buyout.

Therefore over 6 seasons 85mil > 78mil.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1706614

[Rock]

Inside info ? The Orioles offered 6 yrs and 78 million. The Angels hold an option for the 6th year that brings the total to 85 million. The only way that The O's contract would be more is the unlikely scenario that Vlad doesn't play the 6th season. Then there is a 3 million buyout.

Therefore over 6 seasons 85mil > 78mil.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1706614

We definitely should have gone up to $90 million, possibly even $100. If there was ever an FA to give that kind of money to, Vlad was the guy. Aside from Arod or Pujols, is there anyone out there who is better?

If that extra $2 million per meant we couldn't sign Conine every year, so be it.

[Boca Bird]

Heh, I wish I was related (or at least had access to some of Angelos' money).

I believe (and I've been somewhat consistent on this point) that vastly overpaying for free agents should not be used to build a team, that it must be done by having a strong farm system (unless you have a Red Sox or Yankees like payroll which is something Baltimore cannot and will not have).

Overpaying for a FA is fine if it's the final piece or two to a contending team which is not a point the Orioles are at by any definition.

You made a statement that the Tigers are successful now because they overpaid for FA. I'm saying that is ridiculous as the O's have done as much if not more in FA in the same time frame as the Tigers have done albeit w/o requiring terrible contracts to do it. The Tigers are doing as well as they are doing because their young pitching is delivering. And that is the same track the Orioles are on. The question is whether or not our young pitching can turn the corner like Detroits has.

You're conveniently leaving out the 2nd part of Detroit's plan that I mentioned. I said that they initially overpaid for FA's (Pudge,Ordonez) and then were successful in the draft. I believe their success in the draft was the result of taking the best available players as opposed to being overly concerned with "signability".

If you want to disagree with me, that's fine, but there's no need to conveniently leave out half of my points or distort what I'm saying

[Boca Bird]

We definitely should have gone up to $90 million, possibly even $100. If there was ever an FA to give that kind of money to, Vlad was the guy. Aside from Arod or Pujols, is there anyone out there who is better?

If that extra $2 million per meant we couldn't sign Conine every year, so be it.

No doubt about it. Vlad (and D Lee) were exactly the young, complete players that you should build around. The kicker was that they were below market value in a buyers market. I don't think last season's collapse happens with them in the line-up or in the field.

Do you know how much better their defense makes our young pitching (rhetorical question)

After the Vlad fiasco, I knew this team was a long way from winning again. I still can't bring mnyself to watch the Angels game on EI.:002_scry:

[droper]

You made a statement that the Tigers are successful now because they overpaid for FA. I'm saying that is ridiculous as the O's have done as much if not more in FA in the same time frame as the Tigers have done albeit w/o requiring terrible contracts to do it. The Tigers are doing as well as they are doing because their young pitching is delivering. And that is the same track the Orioles are on. The question is whether or not our young pitching can turn the corner like Detroits has.

The Tigers overpaid for Fernando Vina(2 yrs @ $3mill a piece for 04&05), Ugeth Urbina($4 mill, who they traded to get Polanco) and Troy Percival ($6 million in 2005 & 06) before they went and overpaid for Pudge(4 for $40 mill), Ordonez (5 for $75 million), Kenny Rogers (2 for $16 mill) and Todd Jones (2 for $11 million)

The O's haven't even come close to that with only bringing in Tejada, Javy and Ramon Hernandez as quality players sprinkled with the Palmeiro's, Conine's, Millar's and James Baldwin's of the free agent market.

[geschinger]

To be fair, the Tigers never really lost 100 games with their young core of players. They lost 119 in 2003, but the only real hold-overs from that team are Inge, Monroe, Infante (who played sparingly), Maroth, Bonderman, and German. The Sheltons and Grandersons and Thames(es) and Robertsons and Verlanders didn't come along until the next two years, at the same time as Ordonez and Pudge and Guillen, etc. etc.

Robertson got quite a few starts in 2003. If they had signed a bunch of FA to try to be respectable in 2003 they might not of ended up near the top of the draft where they could get someone of Verlander's ability.

They hired someone who is excellent in evaluating young talent in Dombrowski in the 2001. I think the Orioles have added an excellent talent evaluator in Jordan who if given a similar amount of time will bring a lot of talent into the organization - enough to be the foundation to a contending team.

Dombrowski has also acquired cheap free agents and made decent trades to supplement the team. There is no reason the Orioles shouldn't do the same.

If we had sufficient young kids in our own system, maybe we could do the same. Our young pitching depth certainly gives reason for hope that we can find some quality pitchers worth giving a hearty shot in the big leagues. But since Reimold and Markakis are the only young position players looking like they have even a chance at being a big-time ML player, we are in a bit of a quandary. We can go the Tigers route, but we will have more offensive "supplementing" to do than even they did, and I just don't see PA being willing to pay for 2 or 3 or 4 true IMPACT guys for the offense, as well as a big time pitcher.

We have to give it time. How many Dombrowski led drafts did it take to give them the kids that are contributing now?

The problem with the Orioles as they stand right now is that the pitching is still a couple years from being top-notch, but the offense (Mora, Javy, Tejada, etc.) is aging and looks to deteroriate soon. As it stands, by the time our pitching staff is top-notch, our offense will be pitiful.

That's why, sadly, I think we have to trade Tejada. We just don't have the ABILITY to build around him, even if we have the DESIRE. We need to get some real hitters in the organization that can come up along with the pitching, and allow us to see what holes we need to fill after next season with FAs and trades and whatnot. Guys like Wood, Kendrick, etc. would join with Markakis and Reimold to become our equivalent of Shelton, Granderson, etc. etc. We could have them grow along with Penn, Loewen, DCab, Liz, Olsen, Erbe, etc. and have a core of potentially great players. Additionally, when we find out which of our prospects washes out, we will know just who we need to bring in, just like the Tigers did.

On a side note, I think trading Tejada would be devastating to the casual fan. He is extraordinarily popular to fans who don't follow every at-bat and every fluctuation in OPS. He may have worn out some of his welcome here at the OH, but to most fans he is the face of the team and by far the best player we have (both of which are clearly true, it bears mentioning). To move him for a couple guys named Nick, Howie, Erick, or Ervin would be really demoralizing to a lot of O's fans, despite their sparkling K/BB ratios or home/road splits. Not saying that they're right, just saying that sometimes people here forget that most Orioles fans aren't full-fledged baseball scientists...

I agree, if the long term success of the franchise is what's most important than Tejada has to be traded. If the goal is just to put marketable players on the field and try to put a .500 club on the field then maybe it makes sense to keep Tejada and add a few pieces.

[El Gordo]

Inside info ? The Orioles offered 6 yrs and 78 million. The Angels hold an option for the 6th year that brings the total to 85 million. The only way that The O's contract would be more is the unlikely scenario that Vlad doesn't play the 6th season. Then there is a 3 million buyout.

Therefore over 6 seasons 85mil > 78mil.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1706614

My guess is they take the $3mil. buyout '09. His numbers have peeked and at 33 he wont be worth $15 mil. The problem with Vlad is, that as a free swinger, when the bat speed slows down he has nothing to fall back on. The SO will mount.